SCV Poll

[7th Texas Mounted Rifles]

Should Native Americans warriors who fought against the USA and killed America citizens be equally honored as U.S. servicemen?

What would you think of a Hispanic heritage group that wanted to raise a monument in Texas to the memory of all the Mexican soldiers, including their ancestors, who died in the Texas Revolution and Mexican-American War?

A form of this is my dream, sincerely.

Doesn't bother me at all.

 

[archieclement]

And therein lies the rub.

Confederates are Americans and veterans, but they fought against the lawful authority of the United States government, with flimsy justification. They are worthy of respect in the sense that anyone willing to risk their life for what they believe in is worthy of respect. But because of what they fought for, and who they fought against, it's hard to justify giving them an equal level of honor with U.S. servicemen.

Should Native Americans warriors who fought against the USA and killed America citizens be equally honored as U.S. servicemen? What about Loyalists in the American Revolution?

What would you think of a Hispanic heritage group that wanted to raise a monument in Texas to the memory of all the Mexican soldiers, including their ancestors, who died in the Texas Revolution and Mexican-American War?

Indeed therein is the rub and a valid question.

Why should confederates not be celebrated as also Americans and their names removed from historical landscape........while Native Americans have been increasingly been being added? Even replacing landmarks named for US figures such as General Harney for figures like Black Elk who participated in defeating the 7th cavalry.

The obvious answer unfortunately is simply modern politics and political affiliations.

If it's not to honor natives killing Americans, and instead to show reconciliation and all heritiges are indeed American now.......shouldn't it apply to both?

 

[John Winn]

For the record let me say I was born in the south (Georgia), raised in the south (Georgia, Kentucky) and have several direct relatives who were Confederate veterans. My family on both sides go back to at least to the eighteenth century in Virginia. But I've not considered joining the SCV because I feel that they - or at least many chapters - honor their ancestors largely because they were Confederate veterans and I do feel that the organization largely feels that the Confederacy was somehow just in seceding (but perhaps express it as defending their states). And I say what I do about the SCV having read what they say on several web sites I've looked at and reading what various members have said publicly.

I don't have a side regarding the CW and I certainly have nothing good to say about the Confederacy. That said, I don't criticize my relatives for serving the Confederacy but those were very different times and had I lived where they did then I'd probably have served too. And I very much dislike those who try to judge the past by the "standards" of today; it's a serious mistake if you want to understand history. That's why I'm mostly not in favor of statue removal or the attempts to cancel history or historical figures. But I also don't have to honor everything they did; it's just what happened a long time ago in a time very different than ours.

I also wouldn't join any other heritage type organization as I think they feel they're somehow better people for having relatives who did this or that. What my relatives did or didn't do has no bearing on me (other than causing me to have been born where I was). Now, that's not to say I don't find my family history very interesting and have delighted in discovering what some of them did and the people with whom some were associated but it just doesn't say anything about me.

Now, I don't throw rocks at folks who do find some meaning in heritage groups. I'm happy for others to find meaning and companionship where they can. It's just not something I wish to do.

 

[tony_gunter]

I have only researched my GGG-grandfather on my dad's side, but I probably have at least 6 ancestors who fought in Mississippi and Alabama units.

SCV? Too lost causey.

 

[tony_gunter]

.And I very much dislike those who try to judge the past by the "standards" of today; it's a serious mistake if you want to understand history.

I can't speak for other states, but the standards of 1860 survived the war and led to a campaign of murder and terror for the next 100+ years in Mississippi.

It wasn't until 1978 that the state dismantled its state sponsored terrorist intel agency dedicated to suppression of black political power.

 

[archieclement]

I can't speak for other states, but the standards of 1860 survived the war and led to a campaign of murder and terror for the next 100+ years in Mississippi.

It wasn't until 1978 that the state dismantled its state sponsored terrorist intel agency dedicated to suppression of black political power.

That would actually be a 100+ yrs of US history postwar, not Confederate.......if you wish to not honor US or US heritige groups, it would actually be more applicable for events under US rule.........

The disconnect for events actually under US rule and policies is always rather curious. Because certainly if invoking race.....US policies both pre and post war actually rather dwarf Confederate period or influence........realisticly the southern views on race in 1861 had been rather established and was continuation of 90 years of under US view and policies allowing slavery.

 

[JerryD]

For the record let me say I was born in the south (Georgia), raised in the south (Georgia, Kentucky) and have several direct relatives who were Confederate veterans. My family on both sides go back to at least to the eighteenth century in Virginia. But I've not considered joining the SCV because I feel that they - or at least many chapters - honor their ancestors largely because they were Confederate veterans and I do feel that the organization largely feels that the Confederacy was somehow just in seceding (but perhaps express it as defending their states). And I say what I do about the SCV having read what they say on several web sites I've looked at and reading what various members have said publicly.

I don't have a side regarding the CW and I certainly have nothing good to say about the Confederacy. That said, I don't criticize my relatives for serving the Confederacy but those were very different times and had I lived where they did then I'd probably have served too. And I very much dislike those who try to judge the past by the "standards" of today; it's a serious mistake if you want to understand history. That's why I'm mostly not in favor of statue removal or the attempts to cancel history or historical figures. But I also don't have to honor everything they did; it's just what happened a long time ago in a time very different than ours.

I also wouldn't join any other heritage type organization as I think they feel they're somehow better people for having relatives who did this or that. What my relatives did or didn't do has no bearing on me (other than causing me to have been born where I was). Now, that's not to say I don't find my family history very interesting and have delighted in discovering what some of them did and the people with whom some were associated but it just doesn't say anything about me.

Now, I don't throw rocks at folks who do find some meaning in heritage groups. I'm happy for others to find meaning and companionship where they can. It's just not something I wish to do.

Great post and agree completely.

 

[JerryD]

That would actually be a 100+ yrs of US history, not Confederate.......if you wish to not honor US or US heritige groups, it would actually be more applicable for events under US rule.........

The disconnect for events actually under US rule and policies is always rather curious. Because certainly if invoking race.....US policies both pre and post war actually rather dwarf Confederate period or influence........

Yeah, this is where we are gonna disagree. Personally, I am proud to be a US citizen and think its the greatest country in the world, and while not perfect, it has consistently stood up for doing the right thing, most of the time. All things being considered, the USA has been a force for good in the world and many people around the world look to us with envy. I cant say I feel the same about the CSA. And I am very grateful that the CSA failed in trying to break apart the USA.

That being said, I am not in the statue removal crowd. But I just dont think the CSA and the USA are on equal planes from a morality standpoint. My opinion, and your mileage may vary.

 

[archieclement]

Yeah, this is where we are gonna disagree. Personally, I am proud to be a US citizen and think its the greatest country in the world, and while not perfect, it has consistently stood up for doing the right thing, most of the time. All things being considered, the USA has been a force for good in the world and many people around the world look to us with envy. I cant say I feel the same about the CSA. And I am very grateful that the CSA failed in trying to break apart the USA.

That being said, I am not in the statue removal crowd. But I just dont think the CSA and the USA are on equal planes from a morality standpoint. My opinion, and your mileage may vary.

Actually I would agree not equal, certainly if invoking race.......I would consider 90 years of slavery worse then 4 as well. Not forgetting that the US has slavery as well those 4 years......as well the decades of postwar segregation and black codes actually occured under US as well. I agree we haven't been perfect, neither do I wring my hands over our history. As a nation we steadily evolve, but part of that evolution is it indeed taking time.

I just think it's unfortunate at times, some seem to prefer to use terms such as confederate or southern, to not acknowledge when it was actually US. As if they wish to pretend it wasn't actually Americans and US and US states policies.........it seems bit disingenuous way it's often used in that regard.

 

[uaskme]

I haven't joined. Pulled up my local camp's website. Looked like the most active thing they did was cleaned Confederate Tombstones. Probably will joint at some point.

Asx wipes in every organizations.

Went to the new SCV museum month or so ago. Nothing there that is UnAmerican. They have Southern Narrative of the war on the wall. Extensive Narrative. I have no problem identifying with any of it. NBF graves and monument there. Some people can't grasp that there is different views. 2 sides. Maybe you haven't studied some of these issues. National Narrative is full of holes. Hilarious. How is censorship working for us? 1 group forcing their views on another is despotic. Lincoln arrested people for their thoughts. Not an outdated premise.

Suspect racism ended in the South about the same time it did in the North. LOL

 

[JerryD]

Actually I would agree not equal, certainly if invoking race.......I would consider 90 years of slavery worse then 4 as well. Not forgetting that the US has slavery as well those 4 years......as well the decades of postwar segregation and black codes actually occured under US as well. I agree we haven't been perfect, neither do I wring my hands over our history. As a nation we steadily evolve, part of that evolution is it indeed taking time.

I just think it's unfortunate at times, some seem to prefer to use terms such as confederate or southern, to not acknowledge it was actually US. As if they wish to pretend it wasn't Americans or US and US states policies.........

About what I expected from you. But you are entitled to your opinion. I wont waste mine and your time pointing out the obvious logical inconsistencies with your statement.

As for your last point, the reason they use Confederate or South is because its accurate. The US did not secede. The US did not fire on Sumter. The US did not provoke a war to preserve slavery. The US did not ruin its economy in order to keep its slaves. It was a very defined subset of of the US that did that, and that subset is accurately called the CSA or the South (although, admittedly, CSA is the more accurate statement).

 

[JerryD]

Suspect racism ended in the South about the same time it did in the North. LOL

Well, when it finally happens in either section, we will find out.

 

[archieclement]

About what I expected from you. But you are entitled to your opinion. I wont waste mine and your time pointing out the obvious logical inconsistencies with your statement.

As for your last point, the reason they use Confederate or South is because its accurate. The US did not secede. The US did not fire on Sumter. The US did not provoke a war to preserve slavery. The US did not ruin its economy in order to keep its slaves. It was a very defined subset of of the US that did that, and that subset is accurately called the CSA or the South (although, admittedly, CSA is the more accurate statement).

Indeed never said otherwise.......but it wasn't the confederacy running the Mississippi state government to 1978.....which was what I had replied to......if complaining of Mississippi policy postwar until 1978.....that's over a 100 years of US and 0 of confederate rule.......

Neither did the Confederacy segregate the US military until 1948 or american cities to today, or run anything during reconstruction or after. Neither were postwar things like discrimination or segregation ever confined to one region. Yet some seem to wish to pretend so.

Certainly when invoking race, most our history and legacies would indeed be more correctly termed as American. Certainly coming to terms with our history rather requires acknowledging it. So never see any point to the pretending otherwise.

 

[Tennessee Union Gal]

Being a woman, I do not think I would qualify for membership, even if I did have an ancestor who was a Confederate veteran, which I do not. So I am disqualified on 2 counts.

 

[nc native]

My SCV camp puts history first and for that reason I have been a member for over five years now. We do speak out when the preservation of history is at risk but we are not militant about it. If anyone is interested in joining I would suggest picking a camp that agrees with your personal beliefs about how to preserve Southern history and the memory of your ancestors who fought in the Civil War. My camp has several members who are members of the MOSB and nothing negative has been said about their membership. I am eligible to join the MOSB and have been encouraged to do so.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

That would actually be a 100+ yrs of US history postwar, not Confederate.......if you wish to not honor US or US heritige groups, it would actually be more applicable for events under US rule.........

The disconnect for events actually under US rule and policies is always rather curious. Because certainly if invoking race.....US policies both pre and post war actually rather dwarf Confederate period or influence........realisticly the southern views on race in 1861 had been rather established and was continuation of 90 years of under US view and policies allowing slavery.

Ah yes, Schrodinger's Confederacy: the CSA is both central and integral to yet completely seperate from Southern History.

Trail of Tears instigated by a Southern president on behalf of Southern interests? American.

Confederate veterans under white robes? Confederate veteran Redeemer politicians beginning Jim Crow? Southern white protesting integration with Confederate flags? American.

Removing Confederate flags and memorials? Destroying Southern heritage.

Cognitive dissonance is integral to Confederate memory.

 

[uaskme]

Ah yes, Schrodinger's Confederacy: the CSA is both central and integral to yet completely seperate from Southern History.

Trail of Tears instigated by a Southern president on behalf of Southern interests? American.

Confederate veterans under white robes? Confederate veteran Redeemer politicians beginning Jim Crow? Southern white protesting integration with Confederate flags? American.

Removing Confederate flags and memorials? Destroying Southern heritage.

Cognitive dissonance is integral to Confederate memory.

Could say the same things about US History. You and others conveniently dis remember all of that.

Northern propaganda that the North freed the Slaves and wanted equality. Most Intelligent students recognize Lincoln issued the EP to keep Europe out of the War. His philosophy of "One War at a time". More Klan in the North during the 2nd go around early 1920s or so, than in the South. Lincoln funded State Troops trying to exterminate Natives. You remember the Trail of Tears. Which was hospitable to what Lincoln and Grant did to Natives. Republicans restricting X Slaves from going North. Banning Chinese immigration. Jim Crow in the North. Most Northern Propagandists never hear of it.

I don't separate CSA history from Southern History or American History.

Remember all of those Yankee's waving lanterns at the English ships and loaning money to the Brits during the Revolutionary War? Probably not. Who gets to be the Fact Checkers?

 

[LCYingling3rd]

I voted #3 because I have both Confederate and Union heritage and choose to honor all of them in other ways for a variety of reasons. I have never been interested in joining heritage groups like the SCV or the SUV. That is just not my thing. I have at least one Revolutionary War ancestor and never had a desire to join a heritage group for him either.

I have been interested in studying them, traveling to the battlefields they fought at and focusing on researching as much as I can. Also, as is true with all of us, I assume, with limited funds I prefer investing in Battlefield Preservation, traveling to ACW sites, attending talks by historians, doing a little collecting of ACW artifacts. And then there are the BOOKs! LOL

I also do not think that engaging in the "for or against," taking sides that leads to arguing over modern discourse is in any way appropriate for honoring any of our ancestors. I believe our study of history should involve the often-difficult task of comprehending it in the context of the times it occurred. It can be difficult for me to comprehend the times my parents grew up in, no less a time some one hundred and sixty years ago. Not that it can't be done, but the complexity of history makes it difficult. Our history is not black and white, neither side was all right or all wrong and there are positives and negatives to be found in both the USA and CSA of American history. It is also true that the legacies of the wartime USA and CSA are woven into the complex and complicated fabric of American history itself. And we should be able to learn from that history! Not many people want to recognize this; and I suspect it is even more difficult to be objective in any of these kinds of groups?

Regardless, joining groups like those is fine for many but is not necessarily my particular "cup of tea."

 

[Pollaco]

They are right about it being an old fart thing.Younger people show little or no interest. Sad.

 

[archieclement]

Ah yes, Schrodinger's Confederacy: the CSA is both central and integral to yet completely seperate from Southern History.

Trail of Tears instigated by a Southern president on behalf of Southern interests? American.

Confederate veterans under white robes? Confederate veteran Redeemer politicians beginning Jim Crow? Southern white protesting integration with Confederate flags? American.

Removing Confederate flags and memorials? Destroying Southern heritage.

Cognitive dissonance is integral to Confederate memory.

Indeed as anything southern is certainly just as American as anything from the north. Certainly it is folly to pretend otherwise.

One can also put northern in front of racism, segregation, ect.......it also makes it no more or no less actually American. Putting an adjective in front of American or US still leaves it actually American and US.

Certainly US politics and policy remain actually US politics and policy regardless of where a president or congressman is from. As it's the US presidency and Congress driving policy. And if looking at Congress any 11 states are actually a minority not controlling the senate, unless others concur, which makes it not just 11 states in reality...........then if looking at house and population, the southern 11 states were minority as well. Certainly If discussing period politics democrat is actually far more accurate then southern......but then all democrats actually weren't southern.........why there was a rather solid majority to policy.