Rosecrans

[Belfoured]

I didn't say he function well at Chickamauga. However he did every where else. Also the odds were against him. Should have gotten shellacked, but pull out of it and started to recover. He had advanced 60 miles beyond his rail head. Had 4,000 wagons. Getting there would have been a victory if it was Grant or Sherman. Sherman failed miserably at Chattanooga and is given credit for just getting there.

Jim Ogden and David Powell are pretty good Historians. They both say he was sleep deprived. No evidence that Rosecrans slumped from pressure anywhere. Most who understand Chickamauga understand that.

I didn't call you out. Don't wet yourself.

You replied to mine with "Hilarious". That's a "call out". And save the other advice for yourself.

 

[uaskme]

False. He did not function well under pressure at Corinth. From Steven Woodworth's Nothing But Victory:

View attachment 545969

His opinion. Woodworth is a big Grant fan. Grant was on leave/bender. We will never know for sure. Loving Grant and criticizing Rosecrans seem to go together, Rosecrans consolidated force from a large area. By Woodworth's account he wasn't hiding behind a tree somewhere. Few accounts I've read haven't heard this criticism. Quite the opposite. His cursing and profanity must of had a good effect. Directing troops in the front lines isn't folding to pressure. 2 paragraphs from someone's narrative don't usually tell the tale.

I will use one of you refrains. Who won?

 

[DanSBHawk]

His opinion. Woodworth is a big Grant fan. Grant was on leave/bender. We will never know for sure. Loving Grant and criticizing Rosecrans seem to go together, Rosecrans consolidated force from a large area. By Woodworth's account he wasn't hiding behind a tree somewhere. Few accounts I've read haven't heard this criticism. Quite the opposite. His cursing and profanity must of had a good effect. Directing troops in the front lines isn't folding to pressure. 2 paragraphs from someone's narrative don't usually tell the tale.

I haven't said anything about Grant. Is it possible for you to discuss Rosecrans without complaining about Grant?

 

[dlofting]

Directing troops in the front lines isn't folding to pressure.

It's not where the commanding general is supposed to be. It may also be the way he reacted to battle pressure, because he did the same thing at Stones River. I wouldn't term it as "folding" but it did affect his ability to focus on the battle and army as a whole.

 

[TallTallMan]

I haven't said anything about Grant. Is it possible for you to discuss Rosecrans without complaining about Grant?

I like Rosecrans, but I don't need to bash Grant to make him look better. Both men were Humans with flaws.

 

[SJU]

I think both Grant and Rosecrans were highly gifted generals. I don't know what caused the bad blood between them. I think contrasting personalities may have had something to do with it. Grant was reserved and Rosecrans was the opposite. Some people just don't click. I worked for a large organization and have seen well meaning people misunderstand each other and clash due to different personality types. BTW I'm certainly no authority on their relationship.
Some people here seem to think any praise of Rosecrans is a slight to Grant and vice versa.

 

[TallTallMan]

Despite being a Democrat, Rosecrans was very enthusiastic about the Emancipation Proclamation, and even wrote a letter of congratulations to the Ohio Legislature. He was probably pro-emancipation for practical reasons (like 90% of the North who backed it), but it's better than the outright disobedience and lecturing from other generals in the same party. You know who you are.

 

[TallTallMan]

General Rosecrans seems like the Union's equivalent of Braxton Bragg!

The main difference was that Rosecrans popular with his soldiers and competent. Here's a balanced (and accurate) view from the ABT:

William S. Rosecrans

Biography of Civil War Union General William S. Rosecrans

www.battlefields.org

Bragg's Union equivalent was probably Little George.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

Maybe it's just luck (circumstance), but every battle that Rosecrans was in either he stumbled into it, or the Confederates got the drop on him.

At Iuka, Rosecrans was essentially one half of a pincer and the other half miscarried.

At Stones River, both sides were ready for battle. Bragg simply struck sooner and with a more powerful flank attack.

At Tullahoma, Rosecrans stunned Bragg, catching him quite off-guard.

Chickamauga was something of a meeting engagement for both sides due to the terrain. It's also worth noting Bragg and finally counterattacked after twice before falling back in the face of Rosecrans turning maneuvers.

 

[TallTallMan]

I just realized my comment (#48) was dumb. Little George was popular. I guess I meant he and Bragg were both self-absorbed, talented to a degree, perfectionist, can "whip up" an army, and unable to follow up victories.

 

[wausaubob]

False. He did not function well under pressure at Corinth. From Steven Woodworth's Nothing But Victory:

View attachment 545969

Was McPherson at Corinth II with Rosecrans?

 

[wausaubob]

At Iuka, Rosecrans was essentially one half of a pincer and the other half miscarried.

At Stones River, both sides were ready for battle. Bragg simply struck sooner and with a more powerful flank attack.

At Tullahoma, Rosecrans stunned Bragg, catching him quite off-guard.

Chickamauga was something of a meeting engagement for both sides due to the terrain. It's also worth noting Bragg and finally counterattacked after twice before falling back in the face of Rosecrans turning maneuvers.

I don't think that is correct. I think there was intelligence information that Longstreet's divisions had gone to Tennessee. Rosecrans discounted that information. There was not much justification for Rosecrans proceeding past Chattanooga. The Confederates had an opportunity to concentrate in Bragg's area, and they took it. And after the 1st day at Chickamauga he should have been ordering a retreat and fortification of Chattanooga, Bridgeport and Lookout Mountain, and then requested instructions.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Was McPherson at Corinth II with Rosecrans?

McPherson got there after the battle was over, and then participated in the pursuit.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I don't think that is correct. I think there was intelligence information that Longstreet's divisions had gone to Tennessee. Rosecrans discounted that information. There was not much justification for Rosecrans proceeding past Chattanooga. The Confederates had an opportunity to concentrate in Bragg's area, and they took it. And after the 1st day at Chickamauga he should have been ordering a retreat and fortification of Chattanooga, Bridgeport and Lookout Mountain, and then requested instructions.

Stanton hounded Rosecrans, demanding he advance toward Atlanta.

The intelligence about Longstreet heading for Atlanta had been passed onto Rosecrans. A civilian who passed into Union lines had seen Longstreet's men detraining in Atlanta.

One of Forrest's lieutenants defected. He provided highly detailed, accurate intel on Bragg's intentions, strength & dispositions.

Acting on intel reports, Rosecrans ordered his corps to concentrate along Chickamauga Creek.

Keep in mind that the Army of the Cumberland inflicted more KIA & wounded than it received. When Rosecrans successfully withdrew into the works defending Chattanooga, Chickamauga became a hollow tactic victory.

Note: Rosecrans' intel log for the period leading up to Chickamauga still exists. There is no reason to guess what Rosecrans did & did not know.

 

[tony_gunter]

At Iuka, Rosecrans was essentially one half of a pincer and the other half miscarried.

That's not correct. At Iuka, Rosecrans was one half of the pincer, but he got lost and showed up too late to engage the Confederates but decided to pitch into them anyway. Hilarity and friendly fire ensued, then Rosecrans lied and said he never received the updated plans, preferring to blame the whole mess on Grant.

 

[tony_gunter]

I think both Grant and Rosecrans were highly gifted generals. I don't know what caused the bad blood between them. I think contrasting personalities may have had something to do with it. Grant was reserved and Rosecrans was the opposite. Some people just don't click. I worked for a large organization and have seen well meaning people misunderstand each other and clash due to different personality types. BTW I'm certainly no authority on their relationship.
Some people here seem to think any praise of Rosecrans is a slight to Grant and vice versa.

It wasn't personalities, they were friends before the war. What caused the bad blood between them is that Grant wrote an overly gracious report for Rosecrans' gaffe-filled antics at Iuka only to later find out that Rosecrans was blaming him for the confusion. Rosecrans followed that with a gaffe-filled defense of Corinth, and Grant was considering relieving him when Halleck rescued Grant by promoting Rosecrans instead.

Later, Rosecrans showed a tendency to be uncooperative across their respective department boundaries and I'm sure that didn't help.

 

[Rhea Cole]

It wasn't personalities, they were friends before the war. What caused the bad blood between them is that Grant wrote an overly gracious report for Rosecrans' gaffe-filled antics at Iuka only to later find out that Rosecrans was blaming him for the confusion. Rosecrans followed that with a gaffe-filled defense of Corinth, and Grant was considering relieving him when Halleck rescued Grant by promoting Rosecrans instead.

Later, Rosecrans showed a tendency to be uncooperative across their respective department boundaries and I'm sure that didn't help.

I have an interesting perspective on Rosecrans. The Huntsville Civil War Roundtable meets at an Eagles Lodge. During the dinner before the meeting I was asked about the signal system that was the theme of my presentation.

One of the strengths of Myer's system is its simplicity, "…it isn't rocket science…"

The man next to me responded with, "That's ok, these guys are rocket scientists."

One of the rocket scientists made an interesting observation about Rosecrans:

"He had the smartest man in the room syndrome."

That is what made it so hard for him to cooperate with Grant. As a tactician & battle commander Grant was head & shoulders above Rosecrans. He was not psychologically equipped to not be the smarted man in the room. That is what you can call a smart guy's perspective.

Of course, as Dana documented, at Chattanooga Rosecrans was on the verge of a physical & mental collapse. Replacing him with Thomas was the correct decision.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Note: Rosecrans' intel log for the period leading up to Chickamauga still exists. There is no reason to guess what Rosecrans did & did not know.

That's interesting. Where could a person find that log? I know Grenville Dodge wrote that he sent Rosecrans some intel on the confederates coming from the east, but that Rosecrans was not very receptive.

 

[Rhea Cole]

That's interesting. Where could a person find that log? I know Grenville Dodge wrote that he sent Rosecrans some intel on the confederates coming from the east, but that Rosecrans was not very receptive.

Oddly enough, Rosecrans received numerous reports about a movement of Virginia forces to Atlanta. You will be surprised at the wide variety of sources. The Army of the Cumberland's intel gathering was very comprehensive. Now you can read the reports for yourself.


This is a link to an Army Command & General Staff College thesis paper:

Intelligence Operations of the Army of the Cumberland During the Tullahoma & Chickamauga Campaigns. It includes Rosecrans' intelligence log.

Link:

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA211897.pdf

Let me know what you think.

 

[The General]

At Iuka, Rosecrans was essentially one half of a pincer and the other half miscarried.

At Stones River, both sides were ready for battle. Bragg simply struck sooner and with a more powerful flank attack.

At Tullahoma, Rosecrans stunned Bragg, catching him quite off-guard.

Chickamauga was something of a meeting engagement for both sides due to the terrain. It's also worth noting Bragg and finally counterattacked after twice before falling back in the face of Rosecrans turning maneuvers.

Tullahoma was brilliant, but it did not result in any significant battle. I was also thinking of Corinth. I know he won the battle, but the first day was similar to Stones River where he seemed to be bordering on catastrophe.