Rosecrans and Grant Omnibus Thread

[Horace Porter]

Since so many threads lately are really this thread, let's just make it a thread, as someone suggested. As for the poll, the poll will be open for seven days.

 

[Horace Porter]

David Moore has directed our attention to the work of Even Jones on the Grant-Rosecrans relationship. Here is what one reviewer said about that essay:

The longest essay, and one of the best, is volume co-editor Evan Jones's comprehensive history of the decades long Rosecrans-Grant connection, from West Point origins to postwar political and military legacy rivalry. Meticulously documenting the relationship's transformation from one of apparent cordiality to implacable bitterness, Jones's treatment is both more fair and more measured in interpretation and tone than two recent book length studies covering the same subject.

Wonder who he was talking about ...

http://cwba.blogspot.com/2014/08/jones-sword-eds-gateway-to-confederacy.html

 

[Aussie Billy Sherman]

Is this a serious question? Grant by a country mile

 

[johan_steele]

I stand by the opinion of genl Sanborn. An opinion either ignored or disregarded by a couple less than objective authors.

 

[David Moore]

David Moore has directed our attention to the work of Even Jones on the Grant-Rosecrans relationship. Her'e what one reviewer said about that essay:

The longest essay, and one of the best, is volume co-editor Evan Jones's comprehensive history of the decades long Rosecrans-Grant connection, from West Point origins to postwar political and military legacy rivalry. Meticulously documenting the relationship's transformation from one of apparent cordiality to implacable bitterness, Jones's treatment is both more fair and more measured in interpretation and tone than two recent book length studies covering the same subject.

Wonder who he was talking about ...

http://cwba.blogspot.com/2014/08/jones-sword-eds-gateway-to-confederacy.html

Not a single word in that paragraph about what is in Jones' book or what constitutes the unfair and unmeasured interpretations in the two unnamed books. (Heaven forbid the reviewer mention the books lest someone actually be tempted to read them.)
This is a sterling example of what is wrong with much CW scholarship. No examples, no discussion of the ideas and conclusions in the essay, no reasons why it is one of the best essays, no discussion of what the issues in the Grant -Rosecrans dispute are.
This is not a review but a space filler. No wonder the general public knows so little about Rosecrans and his relationship with Grant.

 

[brass napoleon]

Rosecrans captured Forts Henry and Donelson, bagged a 30,000 man garrison at Vicksburg, and defeated Robert E. Lee. My vote is for Rosey!

 

[David Moore]

Rosecrans captured Forts Henry and Donelson, bagged a 30,000 man garrison at Vicksburg, and defeated Robert E. Lee. My vote is for Rosey!

He defeated Lee in WV which resulted not only in that territory be permanently occupied by the Union but paved the way for a new state to enter the Union. He fought the battles of Iuka and Corinth possibly saving Grant's military career who was a no show at both battles even though he was the commanding general.
He won the battle of Stones River which came after the disaster at Fredericksburg and the setbacks at Holly Springs
and Chickasaw Bayou (both in Grant's theater of operations) and was always important to Lincoln.
He conducted the Tullahoma Campaign which gained middle Tennessee for the Union.
He conducted the Chickamauga Campaign which resulted in the permanent possesion of Chattanooga for the Union.
He repulsed Sterling price from Missouri in 1864 which in the words of one historian ended the CW west of the Mississippi.
Not too shabby. I am surprised not that some on this site rank Grant over Rosecrans but how some refuse to give Rosecrans any credit. Equally surprising is how the opinions of those who fought in the war or lived through the period are dismissed as not trustworthy.
I could post, in fact have posted, many, many citations to document what I have written above but at some point if one is interested in historical truth one's sense of intellectual honesty should compel them to be brave and search deeply on their own.

 

[brass napoleon]

I am surprised not that some on this site rank Grant over Rosecrans but how some refuse to give Rosecrans any credit.

No, I'm sorry, go back and look at recent polls and you'll see that the overwhelming majority of people on this forum, myself included, are willing to give Rosecrans credit (83.3 percent voting him a "good general"). That's not enough for you. We have to drag Grant through the dirt, cherry pick and double talk, and bow down and worship Rosecrans. Sorry, that ain't happenin.

 

[David Moore]

No, I'm sorry, go back and look at recent polls and you'll see that the overwhelming majority of people on this forum, myself included, are willing to give Rosecrans credit (83.3 percent voting him a "good general"). That's not enough for you. We have to drag Grant through the dirt, cherry pick and double talk, and bow down and worship Rosecrans. Sorry, that ain't happenin.

Where have I said that we need to do all those things to Grant?
I have suggested that people do some deep research of their own.
I think this is very illustrative as to why we must always have a strong First Amendment; the human tendency is to want to silence those we disagree with.

 

[Horace Porter]

I think this is very illustrative as to why we must always have a strong First Amendment; the human tendency is to want to silence those we disagree with.

Do you actually understand the First Amendment?

 

[NedBaldwin]

He defeated Lee in WV which resulted not only in that territory be permanently occupied by the Union but paved the way for a new state to enter the Union.

Where and when did he defeate Lee? Rich Mountain happened before Lee was in WV; Cheat Mountain didn't involve Rosecrans; at Sewell Mountin Rosecrans retreated from Lee, giving up territory others had won.

He fought the battles of Iuka and Corinth possibly saving Grant's military career who was a no show at both battles even though he was the commanding general.

I dont see why you think this might have saved Grant's career. It certainly saved Rosecrans, since the high command accepted the good press that came out of these battles.

He repulsed Sterling price from Missouri in 1864 which in the words of one historian ended the CW west of the Mississippi.

Price was kept from St Louis by Ewing's defense of Pilot Knob; Rosecrans had ordered Ewing to abandon the position, but fortunately Ewing ignored this.
Price was drive from Missouri by Curtis at the battle of Westport and the pursuit that followed. Rosecrans was no show.

 

[W. Richardson]

That bulldog Grant of course !!!!!

Respectfully,
William

 

[Michael W.]

Sherman was the best......

 

[Sbc]

Thomas

 

[1SGDan]

He fought the battles of Iuka

Giving Rosecrans credit for this is equivalent to praising failure. He made critical mistakes here:

1. He trusted to much in what he thought he knew about the terrain and failed to conduct a reconnaissance of the Area of Operations. As it turned out the distance between the two escape routes was greater than he thought.
2. Once the distance was deemed to be greater than he thought he abandoned his original plan and any effort to seal the route that was eventually used by the enemy to escape was abandoned.
3. Although somewhat restricted by terrain his troops were deployed somewhat piecemeal.

Obviously he did not get the cooperation he expected from Grant but that does not excuse his mistakes. The pre-operational intent of the plan, the destruction of the Confederate force in Iuka, went totally unrealized. A failure in execution.

 

[David Moore]

Where and when did he defeate Lee? Rich Mountain happened before Lee was in WV; Cheat Mountain didn't involve Rosecrans; at Sewell Mountin Rosecrans retreated from Lee, giving up territory others had won.



I dont see why you think this might have saved Grant's career. It certainly saved Rosecrans, since the high command accepted the good press that came out of these battles.



Price was kept from St Louis by Ewing's defense of Pilot Knob; Rosecrans had ordered Ewing to abandon the position, but fortunately Ewing ignored this.
Price was drive from Missouri by Curtis at the battle of Westport and the pursuit that followed. Rosecrans was no show.

No sources, no citations only opinions.
It is appears that you are a Rosecrans hater and will give him credit for nothing.
That is such a unique perspective that you really need to write a well documented book to prove your thesis about Rosecrans.
One sentence answers are a waste of your time and talents. Don't squander the fruits of what I'm sure is years of research in libraries across the nation.

 

[NedBaldwin]

No sources, no citations only opinions.

No answers to any of my point? You are unable to claim how he defeated lee? Unable to counter my points about Missouri.
Were those nothing but opinions There were certainly no citations in your post. You whining compliants about others posts apply to your own posts.

It is appears that you are a Rosecrans hater and will give him credit for nothing.

I wont give credit that isnt earned. I wont misrepresent history for the sake of advocacy.
You might thing that that is ok -- it appears you do from you adulation of Varney -- but I dont.

 

[David Moore]

No answers to any of my point? You are unable to claim how he defeated lee? Unable to counter my points about Missouri.
Were those nothing but opinions There were certainly no citations in your post. You whining compliants about others posts apply to your own posts.


I wont give credit that isnt earned. I wont misrepresent history for the sake of advocacy.
You might thing that that is ok -- it appears you do from you adulation of Varney -- but I dont.

I'm not going to respond to your opinions. I've been doing that for over a year and the result has been an impasse.
I have posted many many citations on this site that back my views.
I gave four sources that support the idea that Rosecrans outgeneraled Lee in 1861.
You need to stop wasting your time exchanging barbs with me. Write that book that documents your opinion of Rosecrans.

 

[5fish]

I have posted many many citations on this site that back my views.

This is not the issue: You selectively chose to ignore Rosencrans true sins. He had a mental breakdown and to ran from battle before his army. These are sins in an army at war and are unforgivable that is why he will always be a marginal character in the civil war. It ended his career and having statue.

Yes, you are right Grant took advantage of the moment to marginalize a rival. Yes, he was Catholic and it was held against him. Yes, he alienated his bosses and the people around him( you forget this point). Yes, you have made a historian biggest mistake you have hagiography your subject. I hope in your Luka project you have picked another person(s) to focus on rather then Rosencrans.... if not then do it....

 

[David Moore]

This is not the issue: You selectively chose to ignore Rosencrans true sins. He had a mental breakdown and to ran from battle before his army. These are sins in an army at war and are unforgivable that is why he will always be a marginal character in the civil war. It ended his career and having statue.

Yes, you are right Grant took advantage of the moment to marginalize a rival. Yes, he was Catholic and it was held against him. Yes, he alienated his bosses and the people around him( you forget this point). Yes, you have made a historian biggest mistake you have hagiography your subject. I hope in your Luka project you have picked another person(s) to focus on rather then Rosencrans.... if not then do it....

I disagree that he had a mental breakdown and ran from the battle field. I have posted things that support that position and of course have more in my book. If I believed all the things that you said about him I would believe what you do but I don't.