Random Thoughts on Iuka

So in one dispatch, Rosecrans says the way to stop the confederates from just "passing" through the defiles of Bear Creek is to send a force directly at them to apply pressure. Okay.

In the next dispatch, Rosecrans says that the way to cut off their "retreat eastward," is to mass heavily on the Fulton road. Okay.

I agree that it's plain English. And even more importantly it's just common sense. The best route, by far, for the confederates to "retreat eastward" was the Fulton Road. Everyone who was there, whether it was Rosecrans or Grant or Price or whoever... realized this. The way to block an confederate retreat eastward was to block the Fulton Road.

Perhaps someone trying a little too hard to come up with a unique angle to the battle might misunderstand and misread the evidence. I'm going to stick with the people who were there, such as Grant.
It is not a "unique angle." It is plain english. You just have to read the relevant record. The Army of the West could certainly pull back via the Fulton road. That is why the plan was developed in order to try to prevent such a move (which was still the case when moving only via the Jacinto road, as they were moving to get to the Bay Springs connection). They could also pull back across Bear Creek, per the whole conception of the plan as it was actually developed and laid out, which was also going to try to be prevented.

No, Rosecrans did not state that the way to block a Confederate withdrawal to the east was to move via the Fulton road/cover the Fulton road. That would prevent the withdrawal southwards. He said that the way for him to try to prevent Confederate withdrawal to the east was to mass heavily on the Fulton road and crush in their left in order to deprive them of the ability to pull back to the east. Bear Creek is to the east. The Fulton road ran generally southwards (south by southeast).

This may all be unique to you, as you were not familiar with the contemporary correspondence and had only read later accounts and secondary sources on it, but it is not unique to those who have intimately looked at the actual record. I could go and pull up more quotes that way, as well.

Regarding the last part, it is stated that Grant was there. It isn't really clear what this means. Many people were there. That isn't productive. Furthermore, Grant himself stated the same in his correspondence at the time to the government. We have the contemporary record at our disposal. The contemporary record is the lifeblood of the historian that way. It starts there.
 
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I have read the relevant record. Bear Creek was simply not an important part of this battle plan. That is just reality.

None of this is unfamiliar to me at all. But I understand that is your weak attempt at insulting my knowledge, as that is your usual tactic when others disagree with you.

If you don't understand how the Fulton Road was the most favorable route for a confederate retreat to the east, then I'd recommend studying the road network a little more.
 
@Nathan Towne is it possible to give the times these two messages were sent and likewise received by Grant. What isn't making sense to me is if Rosecrans knew the Fulton road was the best way out, why did he leave it open. I know he says he couldn't support his two columns if both were advanced on separate roads, but still the breakdown in communication is deposited on moving up the Jacinto road only. This doesn't make sense because he specifically stated he was to send a message ten minutes after the final plan was formulated, and then did not adhere to it.
Lubliner.
 
@Nathan Towne is it possible to give the times these two messages were sent and likewise received by Grant. What isn't making sense to me is if Rosecrans knew the Fulton road was the best way out, why did he leave it open. I know he says he couldn't support his two columns if both were advanced on separate roads, but still the breakdown in communication is deposited on moving up the Jacinto road only. This doesn't make sense because he specifically stated he was to send a message ten minutes after the final plan was formulated, and then did not adhere to it.
Lubliner.
Let me provide that below.

The correspondence which begins with Hamilton having sent out Mizner was sent on September 17th and was not timestamped. It can be found at 17 OR 2:222. Yet again, it read:

"Hamilton has sent out Mizner with a regiment of infantry and all our cavalry, under Mizner, toward Barnett's, on the Jacinto and Iuka road. The only thing we can do to prevent Price passing through the defiles of Bear Creek east is to push that division on him and follow it with all of Stanley's force while Ross makes a strong demonstration on his front. This is safe for a day or two if we can keep spies from running to Breckinridge and Van Dorn and Price and you can hold your hand against them. I can pursue with my entire force, which, including Du Bois and Danville, will be about 13,000 men of all arms."

-17 OR 2: 222

The second message which I cited is found in the Reports section of the Official Records, as it was reprinted in Grant's first report of the operation dated September 20th. The original copy is not contained in the correspondence, as is the case with many messages and orders, of course. This is why it was the only correspondence which I cited which was mentioned in responses to my posts, as it is the only one which others were aware of as they hadn't read the correspondence contained in the Official Records.

It was also not timestamped and is dated September 18th from Rosecrans to Grant. It read, in full:

"One of my spies, in from Reardon's, on the Bay Springs Road, tells of a continuous movement since last Friday of forces eastward. They say Van Dorn is to defend Vicksburg, Breckinridge to make his way to Kentucky, and Price to attack Iuka or to go to Tennessee. If Price's forces are at Iuka the plan I propose is to move up as close as we can to-night and conceal our movements; Ord to advance from Burnsville, commence the attack, and draw their attention that way, while I move in on the Jacinto and Fulton roads, massing heavily on the Fulton road, and crushing in their left and cutting off their retreat eastward. I propose to leave in ten minutes for Jacinto, from whence I will dispatch you, by line of vedettes, to Burnsville. Will await a few minutes to hear from you before I start. What news from Burnsville?"

-17 OR 1: 66

Remember, Grant had sent the following message to Halleck at 8:00 A.M. on September 16th, as well.

"For ten days or more the enemy have been hovering in our front in reported large force. I have watched their moves closely until I could concentrate my forces. All are now in good shape. Hurlbut's division has come from Memphis to Bolivar and about 6,000 troops from Bolivar brought here. General Orice is southeast from us, near Bay Springs, moving northeast. It is reported that Van Dorn and Breckinridge are to join and attack. Form the best information they cannot reach here under four days. My view is they are covering a move to get General Price into East Tennessee. If I can I will attack Price before he crosses Bear Creek. If he can be beaten there, it will prevent either the design to go north or to unite forces and attack here."

-17 OR 2:220

The above was sent before it had been ascertained from Mower's reconnaissance that Price was already at Iuka with "a strong force," which was, of course, basically, the Army of the West, which was reported back later in the day on the 16th.

As can be seen, the Fulton road was one way out. You seem to have this notion embedded in your mind that it was "the best way out." It was just one way out. I have covered that all extensively in my previous comments. Rosecrans and Grant has been in communication regarding the situation fairly steadily and continuously, of course, to that point.

Further, amidst the beginning of the operation, on September 17th, Rosecrans sent this message to Grant, concerned that they may have already missed their window of opportunity.

"Mizner's dispatch just in reports that the cannonading of our reconnoitering party ceased at 4.40 last evening, and that about 8 o'clock last evening a very large fire was seen in the direction of Iuka; the distance is 20 miles. Mizner has gone to feel of them since 4 a.m. My suspicions are that some houses and stores have been burned in Iuka, the place abandoned, and that Price has crossed the defiles of Bear Creek, and will pass the Tennessee before it rises- at the Shoals, if possible; if not, will proceed at once to above Decatur, near Whitesburg."

-17 OR 2: 222-223

As we know, Stanley's Division was divided, with Mower's brigade having moved to Iuka conducting the reconnaissance and Fuller's brigade coming from the west (aside from the 39th Ohio, at least, which would be given another assignment amidst this process). (See 17 OR 2: 221)

It isn't intended as an insult, it is just the obvious truth in that it is absolutely clear that I was the only one here who had actually read the relevant correspondence. That may be why we haven't heard again from Ned and Eric and the like, as it is clear at this point that the positions which they were putting forward did not reflect a comprehensive understanding of this subject. Again, that is not an insult. It is just the obvious truth from this thread, the exchanges and comments, which is okay, but hopefully this has provided them with the incentive to now go do so that way and as stated, I would happily engage in a constructive discussion from here.
 
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The bottom line is the "plan" requires both of the southern roads to be blocked or it doesn't work.

With the Fulton road open, the confederates had a good road to move out on towards the east or the south. They could move out before the battle. They could move out after the battle. They could move out during the day. They could move out during the night. They could move out whenever they desired to move out.

So the entire "plan" is a failure if the Fulton road is left open. And relying on the connecting road close to Iuka to get to the Fulton road was a risky gamble. As Tony said earlier, they would have been almost in Iuka by the time they could use that connecting road.
The Fulton road was simply one of the ways out.

The plan required not only that withdrawal via the Jacinto and Fulton roads be prevented, but also, fundamentally, that the Army of the West be pressed hard and impeded from falling back across Bear Creek, in order to catch them. This was doubly problematic in that as the timetable fell behind it lent less time for the attacks and the whole conception of the plan was that by pressing the Army of the West they could be destroyed with their back to the creek, especially if Federal forces could also impose themselves on the Confederate left flank which would ensure that such occurred, unless, of course, the trap could not be held elsewhere. It will be quite difficult, albeit not impossible, for the Army of the West to pull back effectively across Bear Creek while being pressed. It is the accordion/bottleneck conception when moving via narrow corridors which has been discussed and elaborated upon before. If not heavily pressed, they would pull back via the defiles/fords of Bear Creek. Not only that, but there was no way to tell whether temporary bridging had been put up again at that point, as discussed earlier. As the day passed and you moved closer to night, at which point, the Army of the West could pull back across Bear Creek, so, as mentioned previously, the clock was obviously ticking, which was helping to drive events. Remember, the situation was not as it was on the 18th. Putting aside the orders which Price had received that morning to pull out of Iuka as soon as they could do so, regardless, the relevant point as it pertains to decision making amidst the operation was that Price knew that they were coming and Rosecrans knew that Price knew that they were coming.

That was the conception and formulation of the plan, as clearly stated and recorded in the contemporary correspondence.
 
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Hey @tony_gunter

It is always nice to hear from you.

Yes, that is the road which I understand as being the Fulton road as well. However, I have thought of the spur which runs up towards Iuka as being part of the road, or a branch of it.

Cozzens interpreted the following to have been the Mill Road. Cozzens stated in Darkest Days of the War (page 83 of my copy) that Rosecrans ordered a battalion of the Third Michigan Cavalry "to ascertain whether the Mill road joined the Fulton road or simply trailed off harmlessly into the woods." In his report, dated September 29th, Rosecrans merely stated that he ordered a battalion of the Third Michigan to "reconnoiter our right" and Col. Mizner, of the Third Michigan Cavalry, in his report, dated September 23rd, simply stated that four companies, under the command of Captain Willcox, "were sent to the right wing."

-17 OR 1:73, 113

So, I am not entirely sure where he gets that from, but it would have to come either from Sanborn's Descriptions, from the September 19th entry in the Campbell Diary which is at the Western Reserve Historical Society in Cleveland, Ohio, or would appear to be unsourced that way. I don't recall Rosecrans having stated that in his testimony to the JCCW, but it is possible. I would have to look at it again.

View attachment 519855

What I wish we knew was where exactly the historic Bay Springs was. Rosecrans stated in his report, when summarizing the action of the 19th that the Confederate forces fell back that night toward Bay Springs, with his forces pursuing for fifteen miles before giving up the pursuit and pulling back to Jacinto.
I should also have mentioned here, as it may have been confusing if someone didn't know, John Mizner was the Colonel of the 3rd Michigan Cavalry regiment, but was commanding the cavalry Division of the Army of the Mississippi at the time. Three cavalry regiments, the 2nd Iowa, the 3rd Michigan and the 7th Kansas were involved in the Iuka operation. Captain Lyman Willcox was commanding the 3rd Michigan cavalry at the time.
 
The correspondence which begins with Hamilton having sent out Mizner was sent on September 17th and was not timestamped. It can be found at 17 OR 2:222. Yet again, it read:

"Hamilton has sent out Mizner with a regiment of infantry and all our cavalry, under Mizner, toward Barnett's, on the Jacinto and Iuka road. The only thing we can do to prevent Price passing through the defiles of Bear Creek east is to push that division on him and follow it with all of Stanley's force while Ross makes a strong demonstration on his front. This is safe for a day or two if we can keep spies from running to Breckinridge and Van Dorn and Price and you can hold your hand against them. I can pursue with my entire force, which, including Du Bois and Danville, will be about 13,000 men of all arms."

-17 OR 2: 222

I would have to find the second message again.

Remember, Grant had sent the following to Halleck at 8:00 A.M. on September 16th, as well.

"For ten days or more the enemy have been hovering in our front in reported large force. I have watched their moves closely until I could concentrate my forces. All are now in good shape. Hurlbut's division has come from Memphis to Bolivar and about 6,000 troops from Bolivar brought here. General Orice is southeast from us, near Bay Springs, moving northeast. It is reported that Van Dorn and Breckinridge are to join and attack. Form the best information they cannot reach here under four days. My view is they are covering a move to get General Price into East Tennessee. If I can I will attack Price before he crosses Bear Creek. If he can be beaten there, it will prevent either the design to go north or to unite forces and attack here."

-17 OR 2:220

The above was sent before it had been ascertained from Mower's reconnaissance that Price was already at Iuka with "a strong force," which was, of course, basically, the Army of the West, which was reported back later in the day on the 16th.

As can be seen, the Fulton road was one way out. You seem to have this notion embedded in your mind that it was "the best way out." It was just one way out. I have covered that all extensively in my previous comments. Rosecrans and Grant has been in communication regarding the situation fairly steadily and continuously, of course, to that point.

Further, amidst the beginning of the operation, on September 17th, Rosecrans sent this message to Grant, concerned that they may have already missed their window of opportunity.

"Mizner's dispatch just in reports that the cannonading of our reconnoitering party ceased at 4.40 last evening, and that about 8 o'clock last evening a very large fire was seen in the direction of Iuka; the distance is 20 miles. Mizner has gone to feel of them since 4 a.m. My suspicions are that some houses and stores have been burned in Iuka, the place abandoned, and that Price has crossed the defiles of Bear Creek, and will pass the Tennessee before it rises- at the Shoals, if possible; if not, will proceed at once to above Decatur, near Whitesburg."

-17 OR 2: 222-223

As we know, Stanley's Division was divided, with Mower's brigade having moved to Iuka conducting the reconnaissance and Fuller's brigade coming from the west (aside from the 39th Ohio, at least, which would be given another assignment amidst this process). (See 17 OR 2: 221)

It isn't intended as an insult, it is just the obvious truth in that it is absolutely clear that I was the only one here who had actually read the relevant correspondence. That may be why we haven't heard again from Ned and Eric and the like, as it is clear at this point that the positions which they were putting forward did not reflect a comprehensive understanding of this subject. Again, that is not an insult. It is just the obvious truth from this thread, the exchanges and comments, which is okay, but hopefully this has provided them with the incentive to now go do so that way and as stated, I would happily engage in a constructive discussion from here.
All this shows is what has already been acknowledged - if unpressured and unmolested, Price could cross Bear Creek into Alabama and eventually cross the Tennessee River.

Grant's message to Halleck on the 16th shows that he thought Price was moving northeast from Bay Springs. That would have put Price 20 or 30 miles south of Iuka, and so he may have been crossing Bear Creek at a completely different location than directly east of Iuka.

What is missing so far in this discussion is any evidence that explicitly involves the Bear Creek route in the battle plan. And that is because once the fighting started, the Bear Creek route becomes an unfavorable option for the confederates.

What is "absolutely clear" is that others, including myself, have read the sources and have come to the conclusion that the possibility of the confederates escaping into the difficult bottom land of Bear Creek was not a significant part of the battle plan. The exaggerations in this thread seem to me to be all about a poster trying to puff himself up and putting down other posters opinions.
 
All this shows is what has already been acknowledged - if unpressured and unmolested, Price could cross Bear Creek into Alabama and eventually cross the Tennessee River.
Exactly. That is the whole point of the operation. If hit and pressed hard, it would become extremely difficult to pull back via Bear Creek, as is the case when trying to move via narrow corridors. You want to pressure forces if their retreat routes will, or could, cause bottlenecking. In addition, Rosecrans wanted to crush in their left, if possible, in order to deprive them of those crossings.
Grant's message to Halleck on the 16th shows that he thought Price was moving northeast from Bay Springs. That would have put Price 20 or 30 miles south of Iuka, and so he may have been crossing Bear Creek at a completely different location than directly east of Iuka.

What is missing so far in this discussion is any evidence that explicitly involves the Bear Creek route in the battle plan. And that is because once the fighting started, the Bear Creek route becomes an unfavorable option for the confederates.
If Bear Creek wasn't integral in the plan, or the concern regarding Confederate movements eastwards via Bear Creek integral to the plan as it was actually conceived and enunciated, then neither were the Jacinto or Fulton roads. As Grant himself stated, following consultations with Rosecrans, the object will be to attack Price before he can cross Bear Creek. That is what was going to be attempted via the plan formulated by Rosecrans and approved by Grant. Such was subsequently discussed by Rosecrans in his correspondence on multiple different occasions.
What is "absolutely clear" is that others, including myself, have read the sources and have come to the conclusion that the possibility of the confederates escaping into the difficult bottom land of Bear Creek was not a significant part of the battle plan. The exaggerations in this thread seem to me to be all about a poster trying to puff himself up and putting down other posters opinions.
It is clear from your previous comments and responses that you were not familiar with the relevant record, but that is incidental to the larger points which have been shown. People who are serious about the source material will read this thread and will see what was put up by me above for themselves. One need only follow the relevant record.
 
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It is clear from your previous comments and responses that you were not familiar with the relevant record. People who are serious about the source material will read this thread and will see what was put up by me above for themselves. One need only follow the relevant record.
It is clear that I could say the same about you. You didn't even know where the historical Bay Springs was located.

As far as the source material presented in this thread, it was not all put up by you. But I agree that people should read the evidence and come to their own conclusions.
 
It is clear that I could say the same about you. You didn't even know where the historical Bay Springs was located.

As far as the source material presented in this thread, it was not all put up by you. But I agree that people should read the evidence and come to their own conclusions.
You are right. I didn't, insofar as the second Bay Springs which the Bay Springs road ran to, if it did. I always knew it would have been in the area and never knew exactly where it was. I had believed that it was southeast of Iuka due to the correspondence on the subject, if it existed, but wasn't sure. I am still not sure yet, to be honest. It is quite unclear due to the shape of the Bay Springs road. If there was a second hamlet known as Bay Springs, it would seem to have been southeast of Iuka, but it is likely that the usage of "Bay Springs Road" is just not sufficiently understood.

I believe that there are things which remain unclear regarding the Bay Springs Road and we know from the correspondence that there was another road which ran directly from Jacinto to Iuka, rather than via Barnett's Crossroads, aside from the Jacinto road.

Alright.
 
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False. Bay Springs is clearly shown on the maps in the Official Atlas of the Civil War. One of your problems is that you constantly make false assumptions about what other posters know or don't know.
I don't think that you are understanding. I was very familiar with the Bay Springs which Price's forces moved through on the way to Iuka. I mentioned it multiple times in previous posts here.

See my Post at #98 of this thread. I covered that extensively.

It is difficult/challenging to reconcile with the Bay Springs road as I understand that road.

What wasn't and still isn't clear is whether there was a second hamlet known as Bay Springs, which would be where that road runs to, or whether I don't sufficiently understand the full sweep of the Bay Springs Road. The town which Robert showed appears to be the same town which Price's forces moved through.

You can see that town in the maps in Cozzens, for instance. It is also mentioned in the Little Diary and in other sources.

I don't think that anyone is entirely sure. You need to ascertain exactly the full flow of the Bay Springs road in order to be sure. I was entirely aware of the Bay Springs which Price's men moved through on the way to Iuka. However, there was either another small hamlet known as Bay Springs or I don't sufficiently understand the sweep of the Bay Springs Road at this time. Probably the latter, but it is possible that it is the former.

I was well aware of where that Bay Springs was. Again, please go back and read Post #98 of this thread. So that it is on the record, my view is that it is unlikely that there was another hamlet known as Bay Spring(s) and that it is far more probable that it is simply not sufficiently understood what the shape of the Bay Springs road was/what road(s) actually constituted the full extent of the Bay Springs Road.

IMG_0714.jpeg
 
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@Lubliner

Hopefully that was somewhat helpful. As you can see, the object of the plan, as expressed in the contemporary record, was essentially to seal off the escape routes for the Army of the West and hit them and deprive them of the ability to pull back to the east over Bear Creek and hopefully destroy them by doing so.

Unfortunately, for reasons which we have discussed, but could do so in more depth if you would like to, it didn't quite come off.

There are many important things which are worth covering and discussing, as well, if this is a topic of interest for you.

I would also note for you, in case you were unaware, that elements of the Army of the Mississippi were east of Bear Creek when the Confederate operation commenced on September 11th. Those elements had to be withdrawn across Bear Creek, which they were. You can see this clearly if you track the locations of the units of the Army of the Mississippi, but it is also stated in Rosecrans message to Grant on September 11th in which he wrote:

"Our troops have orders to have three days' cooked rations, and all spare regiments move west to-night; those east of Bear Creek to it; those here to Burnsville. I will order those tents to be dumped and wagons to move only with ammunition and provisions.

Please let me know if the move is on the Pocahontas Road, for Du Bois says the Ridley front is clear. It is important for me to know all, so as to give orders to Hamilton."

-17 OR 2: 215
 
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It is clear that I could say the same about you. You didn't even know where the historical Bay Springs was located.

As far as the source material presented in this thread, it was not all put up by you. But I agree that people should read the evidence and come to their own conclusions.
If by that, if you meant the historic Bay Springs east of Baldwyn, then that is not true and would be inaccurate about me. You can see that in my earlier posts, such as at Post #98.
 
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@Lubliner
@NedBaldwin
@Eric Calistri

We haven't heard from Ned or Eric, so I am not sure how much they may have amended their views on this subject and as I respect both of them, I would certainly be interested in hearing from them, but to summarize, the way I see it, based on my examination of the available record, essentially, is that it was an aggressive plan, rapidly formulated, on the basis of a potential opportunity which had been presented from Price seizing and moving into Iuka with his Army of the West and not continuing to move, despite having Bear Creek at his back, which could be crossed, but only via narrow corridors, which is what one wants to avoid having at their back, if practicable. Following Iuka having been taken, Grant began to draw in the Army of the Tennessee and once the situation was sufficiently understood, via Mower's reconnaissance against Iuka, seeing the potential opportunity, provided that they could move fast enough and following discussions with Rosecrans, Grant made the proposition that they launch a joint attack against the Army of the West via significant elements of both the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of the Mississippi while the Army of the West was still isolated. Grant, initially, proposed that the Army of the Tennessee strike via the roads through Burnsville. Ord, who had reached Corinth with John McArthur's and Thomas Davies' Divisions, would move from Corinth to Burnsville and be supplemented by Leonard Ross' Division moving from Bolivar, which was moving down to Glendale, per Grant's orders to support Mower's force which had fallen back to Burnsville following its reconnaissance against Iuka. From there, they would move against Iuka via the roads from the direction of Burnsville north of the Memphis & Charleston Railroad. It will be recalled that these Divisions were all quite heavily depleted in strength by September of '62. Ord stated in his report that his entire force involved in the operation numbered approximately 8,000 men. (17 OR 1: 117-119) Grant estimated the size of the force in his second report at over 6,000 men, but admitted that he had not seen Ord's report at that point and so those figures could be inaccurate. (17 OR 1: 65-66) The Army's returns are available for more precise figures, but would need to be looked at again that way. Grant himself would move to Burnsville, as well. Meanwhile, Rosecrans would move with his forces via the roads leading to Iuka south of the Burnsville road.

To this, Rosecrans objected on the basis that the elements of Hamilton's Division who he would operate with were already at Jacinto (Stanley's Division had been seriously divided due to the operation against Iuka in order to discern what was being confronted on the 15th via Mower's brigade, but Mower's brigade was pulled back to Camp Clear Creek from where they moved with Fuller's brigade on the 18th), that the roads south of the railroad from Burnsville to Iuka were, in his words, "full of morasses and covered with brush, which would be difficult to operate in" and due to the ability of the Confederate Army to fall back if attacked. Rosecrans plan, very similar to what had been recommended to him by C.S. Hamilton on the night of September 17th, would be to move with Hamilton's and Stanley's Divisions via Jacinto to the roads entering Iuka from the Tuscumbia road from Barnett's Crossroads eastwards, what were the Jacinto and Fulton roads, from where they could move in from the south and with Ord opening the attack at the pre-arranged time, conduct a combined strike from both the west and from the south, pressing the enemy heavily in order to deprive them not only of the ability to move southwards, but also, fundamentally, to deprive them of the ability to pull back to the east via Bear Creek. Additionally, if possible, they would try to "crush in the enemy's left" in order to interpose between them and their ability to withdraw across Bear Creek under the cover of night and optimally to destroy them. Grant approved the plan and it was set into motion.

In order for that to actually work, they would need to:

-Move rapidly enough that they could get in on the Army of the West before they could pull out of Iuka in the interim, as one would anticipate that they would do at any time, due to the precariousness and potential vulnerability of their position, as well as the obvious understanding that there was no way that Price had moved north with the intention of fighting both the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of the Mississippi with only his small Army, meaning that the clock was ticking.
-Sufficiently prevent the Army of the West from pulling out to the south via the Jacinto and/or Fulton roads with U.S. forces which were individually wholly insufficient to deal with a concerted attack upon either of them while isolated if covering both the Jacinto and the Fulton roads and would be very hard pressed if attacked as a conjoined force in the south, or if Ord's forces were attacked along their front from Iuka.
-Move to Iuka via coordinated movements which would result in U.S. forces launching the attacks in rapid succession for the reason of conducting the operation with only a slight numerical superiority in total and due to the need to press the Army of the West hard enough that they would be inhibited from falling back across Bear Creek, with the attacks hopefully opening via the stronger force component operating via the Burnsville front, if possible/practicable.
-Get into a position in which the attack from the south, supported by the attacks from the west via the Burnsville approaches, could drive in the Army of the West sufficiently, or crush in their left sufficiently, that they would not be able to pull back across Bear Creek following the culmination of fighting except in the unlikely event that they were wholly destroyed during the day. Clearly, if pressed, it would be dramatically more difficult to pull back via any narrow corridor. The attacks would not be able to prevent such after nightfall, however, which is why this was essential.

In addition to this, Price had out pickets which would (and did) see the movements coming and once detected, it would be difficult to not press the operation to its conclusion, even if there were hold-ups, or delays, as Price could always use the cover of night to simply pull back to the east across Bear Creek. Those would be the factors driving Rosecrans' actions, logically extending from his well recorded correspondence regarding the operation with Grant.

Failure of any of those four would probably result in the failure of the operation, at least in terms of it being able to destroy the Army of the West.

That, I think, is what the contemporary record, supplemented via the reports and other sources, weighed against the relevant contemporary record and what else we know, tells us.

In terms of the progress of the operation as it was implemented, I provided some on it in Posts #158, #163 and #165.

Regarding that, I will just briefly additionally state that it is possible that Grant's understanding of the situation as it existed at the time did not accord with Rosecrans' understanding that way as far as the ability of the Confederate Army to pull back across Bear Creek was concerned. His correspondence of September 16th to Halleck, however, would seem to indicate that it was, although it could be argued that that isn't necessarily dispositive that way. However, it should also be noted that Rosecrans communications regarding the plan were with Grant, so he would have at least known Rosecrans understanding of the situation and would have been aware of the forces of Rosecrans command which had crossed Bear Creek from the east following Price moving against Iuka. So, we do know that he was at the mercy of his recollection on this having been a bit off certainly by the time he wrote his Memoirs. In his second report he merely stated that with the Fulton road occupied there would have been no retreat open to the Confederate Army except to the east, with the difficult bottom of Bear Creek to cross, northeast with the Tennessee river to cross, or to break their way out. This was all true and was all that he said on that subject. It was an implied, albeit not an explicit criticism of Rosecrans that way, but he then went on to affirm that his examination of the ground after the battle confirmed the inability of units to support one another via the Jacinto and Fulton roads. Again, though, the contemporary record is quite clear on the point, regardless. This is not a criticism of him, per se, nor should it be viewed as such. That is not something which is especially uncommon and no source, especially written after the fact, is infallible, of course. That should, obviously, really all go without saying.

Now, at least one other thing should be noted here which is interesting that way, as well. Ord included in his report the message which he received from Ross, timestamped at 4:00 P.M. on September 19th, in which Ross stated:

"For the last twenty minutes there has been a dense smoke arising from the direction of Iuka. I conclude that the enemy are evacuating and destroying the stores."

How intricately the Division commanders of the Army of the Tennessee knew, or understood, the larger plan at the time is a debatable point, but Ord himself, at least, must have understood Rosecrans role in the larger plan, which can be gleaned from the contemporary correspondence contained in his report between himself and Grant. If Ross (and/or the other Divisional level commanders of the Army of the Tennessee) were privy to it, as well, then it would beg the question, if the Army of the Mississippi was moving up from the south via the Jacinto and Fulton roads (as Grant would always state that he had never been made aware of Rosecrans' decision at the time to move via only the Jacinto road), then where else other than across Bear Creek did Ross suppose the Confederate Army was retreating? Is just one other small thing which is worth taking note of that way. Now, of course, the smoke which they were actually seeing may have been from the beginning of the escalation of the fighting between Rosecrans' forces and the Confederates south of Iuka, but this wasn't sufficiently understood at the time.

Now, I would say several things on all of this. First, there is considerable evidence to support that Grant did at least try to alter the plan and have Rosecrans attack become the opening attack and that he seemed to have believed that such had been sufficiently conveyed to Rosecrans in that Ord seemed to be aware of the supposed change in plans. However, it is not clear that it was understood in Ord's command at all that that would not come until the following morning, as Grant stated in an account later on and regardless of whether Rosecrans had moved via both the Jacinto and the Fulton roads, their fighting was not heard by Ord's command anyways. It would seem unlikely, albeit not impossible, that had Rosecrans moved via both roads and the fighting erupted with him having done so that that situation would have been much different. Second, provided that the conception of the plan as it was put forth was correct in the assessment regarding the potential of the Army of the West falling back across Bear Creek, which the evidence separately indicates that it almost certainly was, the attack coming from the west earlier would not necessarily have been sufficient, Rosecrans later frustration on this point to the contrary, because once night fell, the Confederate force could no longer be pressed, or at least it would become extremely difficult to do so. At that point, under the cover of darkness, Price could have pulled the Army back across Bear Creek (albeit probably having to abandon his wounded and possibly some of his wagons/and or artillery) unless the Army of the Mississippi had also been able to attack and "crush in" the Confederate left between them and the creek, hence interposing between the Confederates and the creek and depriving them of the ability to cross, as Rosecrans had stated. There is no guarantee that they would have been able to do so even had Ord's attacks opened immediately prior to the Army of the Mississippi being prepared to attack and without the Confederates having intercepted them as they did. It certainly doesn't seem clear that they would have been able to do so had Ord's attacks come in after the fighting involving the Army of the Mississippi had already opened.

So, it is obviously superficial to conclude that the operation failed because the Army of the Mississippi didn't move up the Fulton road because a concerted attack upon the National forces moving isolated on each road would have most likely broken through and regardless, the plan was formulated in recognition of the fact that the Army of the West could always pull back via Bear Creek to the east, at least if not pressed hard and possibly regardless under the cover of night unless their left was crushed in. The attack from the south which would prevent them from being able to do that (in conjunction with the attack from the west) would not be able to go forward until after Rosecrans forces had reached the connecting road in the first place, which, of course, would permit them to also cover the Fulton road and enable mutual support between them. Now, it is true, that at 10:30 P.M. on the night of the 19th, Rosecrans sent a message to Grant pressing him on how essential it would be that they attack at dawn, obviously hoping that the Confederate forces would still be there, but obviously they had not satisfied the conditions which would have ensured that such would have been the case.

So, properly understood, this was an aggressive and bold plan, formulated and put into effect by highly enterprising officers hoping to be able to take advantage of an opportunity which had suddenly been presented to them, via what was, probably a strategic mistake on Price's part by electing to sit in a potentially vulnerable position at Iuka for as long as he did. The National forces potentially had enough men available to capitalize on this opportunity, but not by much and it would require precision in timing and implementation and probably even a little bit of luck. It can be fairly characterized as something akin to drawing to an inside straight, but they were going to try. If you don't take shots, you will never hit one. If you don't go after the enemy, you will never catch them.
 
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Yes, I know.

Grant was not consistent from his first report to his second and subsequently to his Memoirs on this at all. His recollection on the details did not always accord with the available record on this (nor with his other accounts on it). The historian approaches every source with responsibility and care that way.

What we know from the contemporary correspondence is that if not hit on the 19th, the whole conception of the plan recognized that the Army of the West would/could simply pull back to the east via Bear Creek. That was the whole basis upon which the plan was built, which we know from the contemporary correspondence, as has been shown above.

You have chosen to just completely ignore the contemporary record, which is not surprising based on past experiences with you, but I don't think that you will convince many people of much doing that if they have the pertinent record at their disposal. If the final conclusion is just that we are going to accept a later account from a report or from someone's Memoirs, uncritically and without respect to the available record and the other historical actors involved, then we kind of miss the entire point in terms of historical inquiry is responsibly conducted and it is just an exercise in cherry-picking information in order to support one thing or another. Not to mention that in this case, Grant's two reports and his Memoirs are not consistent on the subject from one to the other to the other, regardless, so you ultimately have to pick one doing that, anyways.
I would also note that Grant's second report was not as negative as you may believe. Grant's second report can, for the most part, be reconciled with his original report, I think, albeit not entirely. His recollection in his Memoirs simply cannot be and more prominently cannot be reconciled with the contemporary record. I would say that his second report is problematic in some ways., but not in the same way as his account in his Memoirs, of course.

Regarding the statement which was mentioned, Grant merely stated in his second report that in consultations with Ord, they had both determined on the 19th that Rosecrans would probably not make it to Iuka that day.

Anyways, as I have stated, I don't really fault Rosecrans decision to move via the Jacinto road alone all that much. When you look at the entire available record, you quickly see that that is not what destroyed the plan, for the reasons discussed above. Where I would offer criticism is in that when the movement commenced, Stanley's Division, moving from Camp Clear Creek, got trapped behind Ord's forces moving from Corinth and that is something which should have been sufficiently coordinated prior to the operation being set into motion and any way one looks at it can be considered an obvious error. There isn't much way around that.

As for my larger views though, they are laid out in Posts #45, #98, #121, #158, #163, #165, #184, #185 and finally in Post #195.
 
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There's really nothing wrong with Grant's official report or his account of the battle in the memoirs.

The plan failed because Rosecrans fell behind schedule and failed to cover both roads. The only way the plan could have been salvaged was for Rosecrans to come up both roads as planned, with the understanding that the battle would have had necessarily been delayed until the morning.
 
There's really nothing wrong with Grant's official report or his account of the battle in the memoirs.

The plan failed because Rosecrans fell behind schedule and failed to cover both roads. The only way the plan could have been salvaged was for Rosecrans to come up both roads as planned, with the understanding that the battle would have had necessarily been delayed until the morning.
See Posts #184 and #195 above.

The thing about "failing to cover both roads" misses the point and is just not the central issue when the situation and the operation is seriously analyzed and the contemporary record is seriously examined for the reasons discussed above, as it was only one possible way out. Such is easily demonstrated via the relevant record and Rosecrans actions must be understood within the context of the situation as it actually existed and was being discussed and presented at the time. It was wholly understood at the time that the Army of the West could at any time pull back via Bear Creek. That is just the incontrovertible reality from the available record. We must also not extend what Grant actually stated in his reports beyond what he actually wrote and regardless, the reality on the Army of the Mississippi's front was that they were driving in the Confederate pickets along the Tuscumbia road and the Jacinto road that morning and afternoon, in real time. Had they not pushed forward, the Army of the West simply would have fallen back across Bear Creek. Absolutely nothing whatsoever was shown to refute the understanding of the situation as it prevailed at the time.

Grant's second report is reconcilable with the available record for the most part, even though it was obviously written a month later and may have been amended at some point, but that is a separate issue. It isn't actually even as critical as one may think either if they haven't read it, but putting that aside that also isn't really the relevant issue that way.

I may have to write a fully comprehensive book on this subject at some point. I don't think that Grant necessarily did all that much wrong in the Iuka operation in terms of materially affecting its outcome in an adverse way. In the sense of not moving both the Jacinto and Fulton roads, I don't think that Rosecrans did either and certainly the Army of the West was understood per the conception and design of the plan to be able to pull back to the east via Bear Creek, which they would have done had the operation not been pressed forward as it was, again, for the reasons previously discussed. I think that if exposed to all of the evidence, people will generally agree as to my characterization of the operation, which stems straight from the correspondence and will agree that if not heavily pressed, it was understood that the Army of the West would simply pull back via Bear Creek.
 
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See Posts #184 and #195 above.

The thing about "failing to cover both roads" is just not the issue when the operation is seriously analyzed and the contemporary record is seriously examined for the reasons discussed above. Such is easily disproven via the relevant record and Rosecrans actions must be understood within the context of the situation as it actually existed and was being discussed at the time, not via recollections many years after the event. It was wholly understood at the time that the Army of the West could at any time pull back via Bear Creek. That is just the incontrovertible reality from the available record. You are also extending what Grant actually stated beyond what he actually wrote and regardless, the reality of the Army of the Mississippi's front was that they were driving in the Confederate pickets along the Tuscumbia road and the Jacinto road that morning and afternoon, in real time. Had they not pushed forward, the Army of the West simply would have fallen back across Bear Creek. Absolutely nothing whatsoever has been shown to refute the understanding of the situation as prevailed at the time.

Grant's second report is reconcilable with the available record for the most part, even though it was obviously written a month later and may have been amended at some point, but that is a separate issue.

I may have to write a fully comprehensive book on this subject at some point.
I don't need to go back and read any posts. I've read the sources, and my opinion stands.
 
If you choose to reject the relevant contemporary record for your own personal reasons, that is certainly okay. It is what it is. You are free to do as you please, of course.

I will only note that it reminds me a bit of Stephen Sears, a fine historian, despite his flaws, when he dug in tenaciously on the timing regarding the discovery of S.O. 191, even as the evidence became simply overwhelming and crushing against his position on it. Or, how Wiley Sword dug in fiercely on several obviously erroneous interpretations/conclusions regarding Hood (and others) at Spring Hill and Franklin. Sometimes it is not about convincing someone who has already made up their mind and is impervious to evidence and rather about showing the people who approach the subject openly and seriously the relevant record.
 
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