Random Thoughts on Iuka

That is a great find @RobertP!

Do you have the direction and distance from Iuka?
About 19 miles SSW. Dad's old Miss. county maps from 1939. Iuka circled in red at top, Bay Springs circled at bottom right. The lake had not been built at the time, town on West Bank of creek. Closeup shows location of the town in SW/4 sec. 26, still a church there then.

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Who has repeatedly attacked him? Certainly not I. I have read many of his articles, as well and always enjoyed them. Furthermore, I like the guy, as I have stated multiple times. I have merely stated that you have to be familiar with the relevant source material if you are going to pass highly critical judgements that way.

Regarding the other user, his conduct has not been admirable, to put it mildly, which is why I stick to the record and operate from it that way. People can analyze the record fairly and judiciously and we can have productive discussions that way. I have only determined that it is almost impossible to have a productive discussion with one particular user, for obvious reasons, as can be seen above. They just aren't interested in the history, but rather only in their pre-set conclusions on every issue and I am by no means the only person who has expressed their displeasure at the abrasive conduct of that user.

For me though, I don't dislike the above user personally, as I don't know the above user personally. It just isn't possible to have constructive discussions with that user for the reasons highlighted above. I would be more than happy to engage in this topic to any degree with anyone else though, for sure. I know that both Eric and Ned are interested in the subject. I would be more than happy to engage with them at any time.

Suggesting that I have stated things falsely, when such is obviously not the case, is also not appropriate. It just doesn't seem to be possible to have a serious discussion with one particular user, which is okay.

Ultimately, the basic original point was simply that the record is clear. We know that the formulation and the conception of the plan recognized that the Army of the West could pull back to the east via Bear Creek. This was made absolutely clear in the record and was integral to the conception of the plan. That is just incontrovertible on the basis of the record. It just is. If we want to move on to discuss things from there, then certainly we should. The record just is what it is though and can't be controverted that way, obviously. The only way that one can make the claim that the threat of the Army of the West pulling back to the east via Bear Creek was not integral to the plan as it was formulated is to blatantly defy the historical record. One can argue that such a conception was inaccurate, but one can't controvert the plan as it was enunciated.

Thank you,
Nathan Towne
My impression is Ned is very familiar with the source material and he is right that an escape attempt to the east was not a major factor. It would have been a difficult option and a last resort for Price. And that accords with Grant's view as stated in his official report.

In fact, during the post battle pursuit, Rosecrans suggested to Grant that he wanted to intentionally drive Price into the "defiles" of Bear Creek.

This exaggerated importance of the Bear Creek issue seems more like a self-aggrandizing attempt to put down other poster's opinions. Personally, I find Ned to be far more credible on these issues than the above poster.
 
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See Post #45, which conclusively debunks that.

Of course. If you press the enemy they can't withdraw via a narrow corridor. That is always true. Hence it was imperative to hit the Army of the West on the 19th, per the plan as it was formulated.

One would expect that Ned would look at the operation in light of such from here, which I am sure that he will, recognizing what the plan actually entailed that way from the record. 🤷
 
About 19 miles SSW. Dad's old Miss. county maps from 1939. Iuka circled in red at top, Bay Springs circled at bottom right. The lake had not been built at the time, town on West Bank of creek. Closeup shows location of the town in SW/4 sec. 26, still a church there then.

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That is a great find. This is why this stuff is so important.

Cozzens essentially interpreted it as follows.

He took the first image to to be the Jacinto Road.
The second to be the Fulton Road.
The third to be the Mill Road.
The fourth to be the Bay Springs Road (possibly continuing as the road which continues from there out to the southeast, perhaps?).

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Looking at the relevant evidence, my opinion is that Ned was clearly right. Again, here's Grant in his official report:

Screenshot 2024-09-01 101910.png


If the two southern roads had been blocked according to the plan, then Price would have been left with 3 options:

1. Escape east through the "difficult bottom of Bear Creek" with federals in pursuit.
2. Escape to the northeast to Eastport and have their path blocked by the Tennessee River, with the federals in pursuit.
3. Fight their way south on one of the two blocked roads.

The plan was not set up to block an escape attempt to the east or to the northeast, because those directions would have been extremely unfavorable for the confederates with the federals in close pursuit. And if Price wanted to escape before the fighting started, especially through the "difficult bottom" of Bear Creek, he would gotten his army moving during the day on the 19th. He did not.

The route east through Bear Creek was not an important factor in planning the battle because, very simply, once the fighting started that route would have been dangerous and difficult with federals in close pursuit. Grant was clearly right in his report, and the exaggerations in this thread are clearly wrong.
 
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That is a great find. This is why this stuff is so important.

Cozzens essentially interpreted it as follows.

He took the first image to to be the Jacinto Road.
The second to be the Fulton Road.
The third to be the Mill Road.
The fourth to be the Bay Springs Road (possibly continuing as the road which continues from there out to the southeast, perhaps?).

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How's CWT on the tablet :wink:
 
It is in the correspondence regarding the formulation of the plan. 🤣 Is just fundamental in its conception. Can't even get a discussion going with people who obstinately reject the record simply because they don't like it. We could discuss the point regarding whether the plan as formulated and proposed properly understood the situation as it existed, but that just was the conception of the plan as it was formulated.

This is a complete waste of time. Lol.

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It is in the correspondence regarding the formulation of the plan. 🤣 Is just fundamental in its conception. Can't even get a discussion going with people who obstinately reject the record simply because they don't like it. We could discuss the point regarding whether the plan as formulated and proposed properly understood the situation as it existed, but that just was the conception of the plan as it was formulated.

This is a complete waste of time. Lol.
Wrong. To imply that Grant didn't understand the plan as well as yourself is simply hubris on your part.

And the message on the 17th really just proves the point that I've been making: A federal force pushing the confederates makes the Bear Creek route a far more unfavorable option for the confederates. It would be a dangerous route to take with a federal force in close pursuit.

A key part of interpreting the evidence is not just to read it, but to understand it. Grant understood that while the Bear Creek route may have been a favorable option for a confederate force that was unpressured and able to take as much time as needed, it becomes a far more dangerous route under pressure with an enemy force breathing down your neck.

The Bear Creek option was not a major factor as part of the planned battle. If the confederates were forced to take that route while pursued, it would have been out of desperation.
 
Grant's second report was written a month later. The message which you put up was wholly consistent. The whole idea is that this is why the Confederate force needed to be pressed on the 19th. Obviously it is more dangerous to pull back if pressed. That was the point that way.

I am putting no effort into responding to you as it is a complete waste of time and energy. You are not capable of handling sources and have proven that repeatedly. I am interested in having serious discussions, not engaging with this nonsense.

Lastly, lol at the hubris comment coming from you. All of the nonsense which you put out about everyone.

If you have a question or a serious point to make, then feel free to do so. Until then, this is just nonsense and a complete waste of everyone's valuable time.

Thanks.
 
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A key part of interpreting the evidence is not just to read it, but to understand it. Grant understood that while the Bear Creek route may have been a favorable option for a confederate force that was unpressured and able to take as much time as needed, it becomes a far more dangerous route under pressure with an enemy force breathing down your neck.
It also sounds like Rosecrans knew this as well, and why his original plan to attack on both roads was important. The breakthrough for the confederates was the route left open and the time to gain advantage.
Lubliner.
 
It also sounds like Rosecrans knew this as well, and why his original plan to attack on both roads was important. The breakthrough for the confederates was the route left open and the time to gain advantage.
Lubliner.
If Rosecrans had not pressed forward on the 19th it was very likely that the Army of the West would be able to simply pull back across Bear Creek that night and so he had to push. If they could get to the Bay Springs, from where they could laterally support the Fulton Road, they could maybe catch him if they could press home the attack in conjunction with, or rapidly following, the forces from Burnsville.

The whole conception of the plan was that the Confederate force had to be hit in order to deprive them of that ability.
 
The whole idea is that this is why the Confederate force needed to be pressed on the 19th. Obviously it is more dangerous to pull back if pressed. That was the point that way.
No, the whole idea is that both of the southern roads needed to be blocked. Blocking the southern roads was more important than bringing on the battle on the 19th.

If the confederates made no attempt to leave during the day on the 19th, then they would still very likely be there at dawn on the 20th. Especially if Rosecrans had both roads blocked that night.
 
If the confederates made no attempt to leave during the day on the 19th, then they would still very likely be there at dawn on the 20th.
I agree the confederates should have remained bottled up with no escape but toward the east and Bear Creek. But on an accurate assessment of Rosecrans judgement, I put the fault on him more than Ord or Grant. Still, Rosecrans believed the situation demanded urgency, and that is where I feel the fault is found.
Lubliner.
 
I agree the confederates should have remained bottled up with no escape but toward the east and Bear Creek. But on an accurate assessment of Rosecrans judgement, I put the fault on him more than Ord or Grant. Still, Rosecrans believed the situation demanded urgency, and that is where I feel the fault is found.
Lubliner.
I think that gets to the crux of the issue. Why did Rosecrans leave the Fulton Road open?

1. Rosecrans official claim was that the two roads were too far apart for divided forces to mutually support each other. That's a possibility, but as Grant said in his report, the two roads rapidly converged as they got closer to Iuka.

2. Tony came up with an interesting theory that Rosecrans concentrated his entire force on one road after he learned that he - not Ord - would be initiating the battle. That makes sense too, but if it was true it was in vain, because he found the narrow road limited how much of his force he could deploy in battle. It doesn't help to have a bigger force if you don't have room to use it.

3. The theory that makes most sense to me is that Rosecrans knew he was very late and he was trying to make up time by taking the shortest route into Iuka, with the intention of detaching a force over to the uncovered Fulton road as he came into Iuka. It was a gamble, and it failed.

That's the three theories for leaving the escape route open... the roads were too far apart for mutual support, or Rosecrans realized he would be starting the battle, or Rosecrans had been over-promising his arrival time and was now running very late. In the third theory, as you say, it may have been a sense of urgency that proved fatal to the plan. Simply stopping and assessing the situation, and getting the blocking forces in position on both roads as the sun set, and returning to the plan of a coordinated attack, to be implemented first thing in the morning... may have salvaged the "plan."
 
Looking at the relevant evidence, my opinion is that Ned was clearly right. Again, here's Grant in his official report:

Screenshot 2024-09-01 101910.png
So this has Ord ready to fall upon the retreating confederates, if the only way out was Bear Creek or to the East. It also shows that Grant was not fully familiar with the terrain until afterward, lending credence to Rosecrans' decision. That is how I read it, but from the start, I still have a problem as they must have too regarding the time for commitment. This lack of synchronization is what stands out as the highlight of the failure, as Rosecrans tripped up on covering both roads.
Lubliner.
 
No, the whole idea is that both of the southern roads needed to be blocked. Blocking the southern roads was more important than bringing on the battle on the 19th.

If the confederates made no attempt to leave during the day on the 19th, then they would still very likely be there at dawn on the 20th. Especially if Rosecrans had both roads blocked that night.
They were trying to get to the Bay Springs Road from where the Fulton road would be covered via lateral support whilst the attack rolled in.

You are certainly free to attempt to make that claim, but such is not consistent with what is known about the whole conception of the plan. There is considerable evidence to support the notion that the plan as it was formulated was consistent with the reality of the situation as it existed, as well, but regardless, as that is a separate discussion, the whole concept of the plan as it was formulated and enunciated was very clear on this and can't really be controverted that way.

@Lubliner

If you are interested in the topic, I can send you to the relevant correspondence and you can begin with it there and then work your way into the reports if you would like?
 
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I think that gets to the crux of the issue. Why did Rosecrans leave the Fulton Road open?

1. Rosecrans official claim was that the two roads were too far apart for divided forces to mutually support each other. That's a possibility, but as Grant said in his report, the two roads rapidly converged as they got closer to Iuka.

2. Tony came up with an interesting theory that Rosecrans concentrated his entire force on one road after he learned that he - not Ord - would be initiating the battle. That makes sense too, but if it was true it was in vain, because he found the narrow road limited how much of his force he could deploy in battle. It doesn't help to have a bigger force if you don't have room to use it.

3. The theory that makes most sense to me is that Rosecrans knew he was very late and he was trying to make up time by taking the shortest route into Iuka, with the intention of detaching a force over to the uncovered Fulton road as he came into Iuka. It was a gamble, and it failed.

That's the three theories for leaving the escape route open... the roads were too far apart for mutual support, or Rosecrans realized he would be starting the battle, or Rosecrans had been over-promising his arrival time and was now running very late. In the third theory, as you say, it may have been a sense of urgency that proved fatal to the plan. Simply stopping and assessing the situation, and getting the blocking forces in position on both roads as the sun set, and returning to the plan of a coordinated attack, to be implemented first thing in the morning... may have salvaged the "plan."
Well, we have to recognize what is meant by "rapidly converged." The Jacinto and Fulton roads met the road through Jacinto and Cartersville (the Tuscumbia road, I believe it was known as) around 4 1/2 to 5 miles from one another and converged to within about 1 1/2 miles from one another as they neared Iuka, give or take. The Bay Springs road was quite close to the town, but the existence of which was well known before the operation was put into motion.

The fundamental problem was that it was a race against the clock, as the Army of the West could always pull back to the east via Bear Creek, especially if not substantially pressed. So, as the timetable fell behind and Grant was notified of such, it became problematic in that Grant then elected to withhold the attack and per his account, to actually alter the plan and so inform Rosecrans, or so attempt to inform him, at least to the effect that the Army of the Mississippi would open the attack. Grant's accounts on this vary to some degree on precisely what he attempted to do that way. The trouble is that, first, it is very unclear that any of this was received or understood by Rosecrans, second it may have resulted in Price being able to respond more sufficiently to the southern threat and finally it proved to be unworkable in that Ord's forces were unable to hear the fighting as it opened, regardless and hence never moved, which would have still been the case had Rosecrans sent Hamilton's Division via the Fulton Road, as originally planned. So, if Rosecrans had moved via both roads and the fighting opened on one or on both roads, it isn't like Ord's forces would have then picked up the attack unless for some bizarre reason they would have been able to hear fighting on the Fulton road or on a different section of the Jacinto road/Bay Springs road which they were unable to hear historically in how events actually transpired.

Yet, Rosecrans couldn't stop and simply cover both roads because forces on each road could not support one another and had Price fallen on one or the other with substantial force, prior to them reaching the Bay Springs road, the consequences would have been severe indeed, but also because he had a duty to support Ord's attacks if they were to go forward and most importantly if the Army of the West was not hit hard and their ability to pull back via Bear Creek that night greatly impeded, they would simply do so, as the Confederates were fully aware at this point that they were coming, which Rosecrans would have known to be the case as they had been driving back the Confederate pickets that morning and afternoon.

At this point, you see how the situation began to snowball each way, operating with bare minimums in terms of force strength requisite for an operation like this relative to Confederate strength, with responsibilities to one another which had to upheld and honored, the extreme difficulty in effectively and quickly communicating with one another and the constant threat that the Army of the West was always liable to begin pulling back via Bear Creek, which was fundamental in the conception and articulation of the plan.

As I quoted earlier, here is Rosecrans to Grant, first regarding the conception of the plan:

"Hamilton has sent out Mizner with a regiment and all our cavalry, toward Barnett's on the Jacinto and Iuka Roads. The only thing that we can do to prevent Price's passing through the defiles of Bear Creek east is to push that division on him and follow it with all of Stanley's force while Ross makes a strong demonstration on his front. This is safe for a day or two if we can keep spies from running to Breckinridge and Van Dorn and Price and you can hold your hand against them. I can pursue with my entire force, which, including Du Bois and Danville, will be about 13,000 men of all arms."

And additionally:

"If Price's forces are at Iuka the plan I propose is to move up as close as we can tonight and conceal our movements; Ord to advance from Burnsville, commence the attack, and draw their attention that way, while I move in on the Jacinto and Fulton Roads, massing heavily on the Fulton Road, and crushing in their left and cutting off their retreat eastward. I propose to leave in ten minutes for Jacinto from whence I will dispatch you by a line of vedettes to Burnsville."

The plan was approved and was set into motion, but there wasn't enough time to ensure that all units were in appropriate positions for launching the operation. Stanley's Division was well out of position and had to first be moved to Jacinto, which took longer than had been optimistically forecast (which I have studied, as well) and again, all the while, the clock was ticking. Also, it has to be remembered, that per his plan, Rosecrans had assigned himself the brutal aspect of this (authorized, of course, by Grant). His forces were to move much further and were responsible for blocking not only the escape routes to the south, but also to make the crushing attack against the Confederate left in order to attempt to interpose themselves between the Army of the West and Bear Creek.
 
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One unanswered question about Iuka that keeps coming up is whether or not Rosecrans actually knew that due to his running late, the plan had been changed. Rosecrans denied he'd been told, and he claimed Dickey and Lagow merely made "suggestions." But after Lagow joined up with Rosecrans, he sent a message back to Grant informing him that "your dispatch to Genl. Rosecrans rec'd." This implies that Dickey and Lagow didn't just go to Rosecrans with a verbal message from Grant. They also carried a written dispatch from Grant. That makes it even more unlikely that Rosecrans didn't know that the plan had changed.

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The bottom line is the "plan" requires both of the southern roads to be blocked or it doesn't work.

With the Fulton road open, the confederates had a good road to move out on towards the east or the south. They could move out before the battle. They could move out after the battle. They could move out during the day. They could move out during the night. They could move out whenever they desired to move out.

So the entire "plan" is a failure if the Fulton road is left open. And relying on the connecting road close to Iuka to get to the Fulton road was a risky gamble. As Tony said earlier, they would have been almost in Iuka by the time they could use that connecting road.
 

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