Random Thoughts on Iuka

I think people run into problems here when they fail to realize that every single post, including their own, is an opinion. Opinions based on books that are read, on sources that are investigated, and perhaps on personal biases as well.

No one here is an arbiter of truth.

A lot of the sources on Iuka don't make sense. Much of what Eric and Ned did in that thread was asking questions about what we don't know. Why did Rosecrans not inform Grant that he was leaving the Fulton road open? Why did he misrepresent the ETA that he had sent Grant? I thought they did a very good job parsing the available evidence.
 
@SSVilla

Ned left out a tonne. There is way more to it than he was making out the last time we spoke on it.

I put up a little bit here if you want to read a little more about it that way. I didn't go into tremendous depth though because there are so many accounts which need to be covered.

For instance, in his first comment on it, Ned stated that there wasn't really a concern about the Confederate force being able to fall back to the east. That is simply not the case. The plan centered on that pressure was going to be essential in order to prevent the Confederate force from pulling back to the east. If you don't know that, then you are kind of at a loss even beginning to understand the operation.


This was a continuously developing situation from September 13th. I see the Iuka plan as a very bold plan, rapidly formulated and implemented, which just couldn't quite do it. It is to everyone's credit that they formulated and actually tried to implement something like this as rapidly as they did. The September 18th-19th operation is rightly seen as the culmination of ongoing operations from the 13th and it was only through their enterprise, both of Rosecrans and Grant, that this ever occurred.

I will put up the quote which I cited from Rosecrans.

Someday, we can go into more depth on it. I am working on/studying some other things at the moment and don't want to get too bogged in discussions on such a complex topic.

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I am currently reading the Iuka and Corinth book by Peter Cozzens. Although he keeps things interesting focusing on the command dramas on both sides, he can get so detailed with troop movements, that it can be dense as well. Anyway, he's pretty critical of everyone, which is fine by me.

Here's what Cozzens wrote about the message from Dickey and Lagow, and what was going on with Rosecrans at the time.

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View attachment 518659View attachment 518660
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Basically, as I understand it, when he reached Barrnett's Crossroads and after poring over maps, Rosecrans realized for the first time that the distance between Jacinto and Fulton was five miles, more than twice the distance he thought and that he'd have to advance in a single column, not having enough men to split his forces safely (because they would be so far away.)

He didn't inform Grant that he was doing this, which changed the plan. Dickey and Lagow gave him a message to attack or told him to do so, depending on whether the reader credits Rosecrans or not. I tend to think he knew it was an order to attack. Buy he wasn't of a mind to attack apparently preferring that Ord do so first, so that he could spring the trap from behind, but any arguments between them would be interrupted when the encounter started.

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I find Cozzens in this book a little difficult to difficult to follow. He jumps back and forth between confederates and Union and between what's going on at different points and with different people. There's a lot of detail and doesn't make for easy reading.
Thinking about this comment that Rosecrans made to Lagow at Barnetts Crossroads: "It would be very bad policy to allow the enemy's attention to be first attracted to his line of communication, to seize and secure which was the purpose of my movement."

The ironic thing about this comment is that a couple weeks later, on the Hatchie, the roles were reversed and Ord was the one trying to block the enemy's "line of communication," and Rosecrans was the one who was supposed to be hitting the enemy from the other side.

Grant, in operational command, was trying to set up another pincer. He specifically told Rosecrans that he needed to follow the enemy's retreat after the Battle of Corinth, so that Ord/Hurlbut would not get hammered as they tried to cut off the confederates escape. Instead, the Battle of Corinth ended at about noon on October 4th and Rosecrans did nothing until the next morning. He sent some token forces to follow the confederates, but he did not mobilize his army until the following day. As a result, Ord and Hurlbut suffered significant casualties.

So, two efforts to set up pincers in northern Mississippi, and two failures of coordination, and two resulting escapes of the confederates. And both failures of coordination were primarily due to Rosecrans.
 
For instance, in his first comment on it, Ned stated that there wasn't really a concern about the Confederate force being able to fall back to the east. That is simply not the case.
Quote from Grants memoirs: "Bear Creek, a few miles to the east of the Fulton road, is a formidable obstacle to the movement of troops in the absence of bridges, all of which, in September, 1862, had been destroyed in that vicinity." Now you can create hypotheticals all you want about what if Price built new bridges all of a sudden, but the fact remains that according to Grant it was a major obstacle to movement in that direction.
 
Quote from Grants memoirs: "Bear Creek, a few miles to the east of the Fulton road, is a formidable obstacle to the movement of troops in the absence of bridges, all of which, in September, 1862, had been destroyed in that vicinity." Now you can create hypotheticals all you want about what if Price built new bridges all of a sudden, but the fact remains that according to Grant it was a major obstacle to movement in that direction.
Before I respond, Ned, let me just say that I don't want to get into a rude spat with you. I respect you and your passion. I really honestly do. We agree on significantly more than we disagree on.

The trouble is and I say this constructively and with respect, you seem to come at some things without putting in the same level of rigor and balance which you otherwise would. Again, I say that with respect to you. It is possible that my recollection on this is a bit off, but I recall you mentioning once that you had had interactions with historian Tim Smith online before and stated that while he is knowledgeable, they had been "testy" exchanges. If my recollection has not betrayed me, I would venture the guess that such may have been an influencing factor in that.

As you know, memoirs, generally, are notoriously unreliable in terms of specifics, as they arise from someone's recollection of events, typically many years after the fact, from perceptions of others shaped by subsequent events and so on and should always be used with extreme care. Rosecrans post-war writings are equally as problematic. To be sure, some memoirs are more reliable than others. Some sections of one's writings may be reliable than in other areas. However, with regards to these things, they tend to pose serious problems that way. That doesn't mean that they do not have any value. By no means. I own many. However, they need to be understood In terms of their serious limitations. Now, I recognize that Grant made statements in his reports on the operation which can be seen as to roughly correspond with his statement in his memoirs, but the larger point remains the same. Beginning with any account from someone's memoirs is problematic when we have a readily available contemporary record. Furthermore, we know from the contemporary record that the prospect of the Confederate Army falling back to the east across Bear Creek was a fundamental consideration in the formulation of the plan.

The reality is that we know for a fact that the threat of the Confederates falling back to the east across Bear Creek was integral in the planning and formulation of the operation and was something which Rosecrans was fully cognizant of and had broached in the formulation of the plan. In fact, Rosecrans view at the time was that only by aggressively pushing on them immediately could movement via the defiles of Bear Creek be prevented. Furthermore, in the days following September 13th, it was more than possible that Confederate forces at Iuka had thrown up at least temporary bridges in that time, or were in the process still of doing so, which could further aid such a movement. Prior to September 13th, Iuka had been garrisoned by a small force under the command of Robert Murphy, within Rosecrans' command. After Murphy had been fallen back on the 13th, the Confederates had held Iuka from that point forward. It wasn't until the 11th Missouri, under the command of Joe Mower, was ordered to press Iuka and discern what was there that it was discerned that Iuka was held by the Confederates in force. The plan was then rapidly formulated from there.

Rosecrans made this all explicitly clear as far as the concern of the Confederate force being able to pull back to the east was concerned, in his correspondence, as cited above. For instance, Rosecrans wrote to Grant:

"Hamilton has sent out Mizner with a regiment and all our cavalry, toward Barnett's on the Jacinto and Iuka Roads. The only thing that we can do to prevent Price's passing through the defiles of Bear Creek east is to push that division on him and follow it with all of Stanley's force while Ross makes a strong demonstration on his front. This is safe for a day or two if we can keep spies from running to Breckinridge and Van Dorn and Price and you can hold your hand against them. I can pursue with my entire force, which, including Du Bois and Danville, will be about 13,000 men of all arms."

It was the clearly stated view of Rosecrans in his communications at the time that the Confederate Army could pull back across Bear Creek, via the defiles of the creek, unless rapidly pressed, or, at least, that such was a very serious threat to the success of the operation. Being that he developed and formulated the plan, the area had been covered previously by forces in his command and that it was several days between the capture of Iuka and the knowledge of what was there being ascertained and the plan being formulated and put into motion, which was more than sufficient for bridges to be constructed which could additionally aid in such a movement, there is absolutely no way in which such cannot be regarded as a integral element to the entire plan.

Here is Rosecrans to Grant, again:

"If Price's forces are at Iuka the plan I propose is to move up as close as we can tonight and conceal our movements; Ord to advance from Burnsville, commence the attack, and draw their attention that way, while I move in on the Jacinto and Fulton Roads, massing heavily on the Fulton Road, and crushing in their left and cutting off their retreat eastward. I propose to leave in ten minutes for Jacinto from whence I will dispatch you by a line of vedettes to Burnsville."

If the scope of your understanding of the operation comes from Grant's Memoirs, then you are doing yourself a real disservice. This was my concern and why I was reticent in getting an intimate discussion on this subject. It begins with you being intimately familiar with the historical record, but right out of the gate, you stated something which is patently and demonstrably untrue based on the contemporary record. It makes things very problematic that way.
 
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Quote from Grants memoirs: "Bear Creek, a few miles to the east of the Fulton road, is a formidable obstacle to the movement of troops in the absence of bridges, all of which, in September, 1862, had been destroyed in that vicinity." Now you can create hypotheticals all you want about what if Price built new bridges all of a sudden, but the fact remains that according to Grant it was a major obstacle to movement in that direction.
I agree. Grant said much the same thing in his official report at the time:

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It's obvious from Grant's standpoint that had the southern roads been blocked the confederates would not have any good options. He was more concerned with blocking the Jacinto and Fulton roads than in trying to block an escape to the northeast or east.
 
I agree. Grant said much the same thing in his official report at the time:

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It's obvious from Grant's standpoint that had the southern roads been blocked the confederates would not have any good options. He was more concerned with blocking the Jacinto and Fulton roads than in trying to block an escape to the northeast or east.
I am not looking to even have you involved in a discussion, as that wouldn't be productive. I am certainly familiar with the contents of Grant's reports.

@NedBaldwin

Again, I like you. However, you shouldn't be attempting to speak authoritatively on this if you didn't understand that. That was not an auspicious start that way. I would be more than happy to have a conversation on this subject in our personal chat just between the two of us if you want to. As can be seen, there is a particular user with whom it is a waste of time to attempt to have a discussion.
 
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The point about the road network was a good one. There are historical maps of Tishimingo County, but the earliest I can find is circa 1920.

If the roads in 1920 were anything like the roads in 1862, it's an extra five miles or so to get to Iuka by that route. If Rosecrans approaches on the Fulton Road, can he even get there by sundown?
 
One question that comes to mind from this discussion, and from Tony's theory of why Rosecrans suddenly chose to not send troops up the Fulton road...

If Rosecrans had been on schedule, would he still have decided to advance all his troops only on the Jacinto road? Would he still have considered it too risky to send part of his force up the Fulton road if he wasn't running very late? Was there something more than just the "supporting distance" that factored into keeping all his troops on one road?

Keeping all his troops on the Jacinto road proved useless. Bunched up on one road meant that he couldn't deploy even half of his troops when the battle actually happened. And it ultimately left the escape route open.

Whether it was because he was running so late, or because he was suddenly faced with the fact that he would be the one initiating the fighting, Rosecrans made a fateful choice when he decided to advance all his troops on one road. Even if Ord had heard the battle and pitched in before nightfall, Price was still going to slip away on the open road that night.
 
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Thinking about this comment that Rosecrans made to Lagow at Barnetts Crossroads: "It would be very bad policy to allow the enemy's attention to be first attracted to his line of communication, to seize and secure which was the purpose of my movement."

The ironic thing about this comment is that a couple weeks later, on the Hatchie, the roles were reversed and Ord was the one trying to block the enemy's "line of communication," and Rosecrans was the one who was supposed to be hitting the enemy from the other side.

Grant, in operational command, was trying to set up another pincer. He specifically told Rosecrans that he needed to follow the enemy's retreat after the Battle of Corinth, so that Ord/Hurlbut would not get hammered as they tried to cut off the confederates escape. Instead, the Battle of Corinth ended at about noon on October 4th and Rosecrans did nothing until the next morning. He sent some token forces to follow the confederates, but he did not mobilize his army until the following day. As a result, Ord and Hurlbut suffered significant casualties.

So, two efforts to set up pincers in northern Mississippi, and two failures of coordination, and two resulting escapes of the confederates. And both failures of coordination were primarily due to Rosecrans.
At the Hatchie? I see this is after Van Dorn retreated from Corinth. I am still not there yet in the book. I might have to come back to this comment later.

————

I noticed before that you thought the fallout between Grant and Rosecrans started afterwards. I think for Grant that's obviously true. Immediately after, he was concerned about the next move, very characteristic for him. His first report was favorable to Rosecrans.

For Rosecrans however, I think it was different. Although comments made 20 years later can be tainted by the history of animosity that developed afterwards — I think this is maybe what you are saying. However, Rosecrans wrote to his wife that he couldn't shake the feeling that had the attack from the west been made, his trap would have succeeded. He just wouldn't let that go, and was completely blind to the reasons the attack from the west was postponed. This kind of "blindness" or lack of acknowledgment of his role in the postponement can help explain his confusing statements about the communication with Dickey and Lagow. He had a very formidable blind spot, where he was in denial that his delay caused a corresponding change. Like the saying goes: "There's none so blind as he who will not see." Cozzens added that Rosecrans never accepted the explanation of the acoustic shadow either.

I am citing this paragraph from Castel for the reference to the Rosecrans letter. You must have seen it before.

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When isolated from Castel's opinions there ^ the letter and corresponding disappointment seem normal and not raging. However, Rosecrans was bitter about "the tardy justice" of getting his promotion to major general in September. That comment had nothing to do with Grant or Iuka and I think lies closer to the truth of all their problems… the quest for more rank, an independent command, etc.

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I also think that had this kind of unsatisfying battle result happened with someone else, it wouldn't have been a source of everlasting bitterness or angry feelings. Consider the disappointments Sherman and Grant had gone through. Shiloh, shocking battle, even in victory it was a source of much press criticism. Sherman and Grant could have blamed each other for the surprise but didn't. Grant almost quit and went home when Halleck placed him in a "time out" and Sherman convinced him to stay and wait things out, instead of ridding himself of Grant.

Then, it must have been a big disappointment for General Sherman to attack Chickasaw Bluffs in December and find it well defended, contrary to his plan with Grant. His attack was reported as a repulse, when it was one prong of a coordinated plan that failed on Grant's end. Again Sherman and Grant could have been at odds with each other, in some rivalry power play. Lucky for the U.S. they didn't play that game.

Meantime, this Iuka battle didn't accomplish all it intended, but it was not a repulse, a humiliation, or some shock, surely Rosecrans could still spin it to his advantage. Corinth was a battle with a favorable result for the Union, a victory. Rosecrans got the independent command he desired out of it. Yet it all ended poorly between Grant and Rosecrans?

The only explanation must be that the source of their problems was somewhere else. I am still trying to understand that. My impressions are still incomplete but my disposition is to think that the battles themselves aren't it.
 
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Probably not. But if it was an essential part of the plan, than maybe that justifies delaying the attack until the next morning.
It's interesting that Cozzens say Rosecrans consolidated his columns because they couldn't support each other with the extra distance, but the inability to get there in time isn't mentioned as a reason.
 
Then, it must have been a big disappointment for General Sherman to attack Chickasaw Bluffs in December and find it well defended, contrary to his plan with Grant. His attack was reported as a repulse, when it was one prong of a coordinated plan that failed on Grant's end. Again Sherman and Grant could have been at odds with each other, in some rivalry power play. Lucky for the U.S. they didn't play that game.

Meantime, this Iuka battle didn't accomplish all it intended, but it was not a repulse, a humiliation, or some shock, surely Rosecrans could still spin it to his advantage. Corinth was a battle with a favorable result for the Union, a victory. Rosecrans got the independent command he desired out of it. Yet it all ended poorly between Grant and Rosecrans?

The only explanation must be that the source of their problems was somewhere else. I am still trying to understand that. My impressions are still incomplete but my disposition is to think that the battles themselves aren't it.
Not that this is apropos of your point, but that's not how Chickasaw Bayou transpired.

Halleck ordered Grant to split his forces and send Sherman downriver to assault Vicksburg before McClernand could arrive. He told Grant to send every available man with Sherman and fall back behind the Tallahatchie. Grant elected to wait and see how Pemberton would react in the event of Sherman's success, in which case he would follow Pemberton if he fell back upon Sherman en masse. Sherman would then send boats up the Yazoo to Grant to facilitate the move.

There was never any plan for a two-pronged attack, and Grant for his part held Pemberton in place long enough for the assault to take place. The only units sent south that made it to the battlefield were Gregg's Brigade and Vaughn's diminutive brigade of conscripts, both of which were ordered to Vicksburg before Pemberton ever realized Grant had withdrawn from his front.

If Grant and Sherman were to point fingers at anyone, it would either be Lincoln for carving out an independent command for McClernand, or Stanton and Halleck for foisting the task onto Sherman to obviate that independent command.

Ultimately, it was a blessing in disguise for Grant because it not only rescued him from Halleck's doghouse, but it vaulted Grant to top dog status for Stanton and Halleck now that Grant was suddenly their only weapon against McClernand.

Under this new carte blanche, Grant was able to petition for reinforcements, raise McPherson to Major General [edit: should read "to corps command"], reject the appointment of Lew Wallace to his department, and push Charles Hamilton to resign.
 
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Not that this is apropos of your point, but that's not how Chickasaw Bayou transpired.

Halleck ordered Grant to split his forces and send Sherman downriver to assault Vicksburg before McClernand could arrive. He told Grant to send every available man with Sherman and fall back behind the Tallahatchie. Grant elected to wait and see how Pemberton would react in the event of Sherman's success, in which case he would follow Pemberton if he fell back upon Sherman en masse. Sherman would then send boats up the Yazoo to Grant to facilitate the move.

There was never any plan for a two-pronged attack, and Grant for his part held Pemberton in place long enough for the assault to take place. The only units sent south that made it to the battlefield were Gregg's Brigade and Vaughn's diminutive brigade of conscripts, both of which were ordered to Vicksburg before Pemberton ever realized Grant had withdrawn from his front.

If Grant and Sherman were to point fingers at anyone, it would either be Lincoln for carving out an independent command for McClernand, or Stanton and Halleck for foisting the task onto Sherman to obviate that independent command.

Ultimately, it was a blessing in disguise for Grant because it not only rescued him from Halleck's doghouse, but it vaulted Grant to top dog status for Stanton and Halleck now that Grant was suddenly their only weapon against McClernand.

Under this new carte blanche, Grant was able to petition for reinforcements, raise McPherson to Major General, reject the appointment of Lew Wallace to his department, and push Charles Hamilton to resign.
Thanks for the correction. That is now a very interesting topic for me to read on after I untangle this Iuka/Corinth thing (as well as I can anyway.)

Grant tended in his memoirs to make much about having to turn back when Van Dorn attacked the army depot at Holly Springs. Therefore my impression is that Grant was frustrated on his part.
 
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Thanks for the correction. That is now a very interesting topic for me to read on after I untangle this Iuka/Corinth thing (as well as I can anyway.)

Grant tended in his memoirs to make much about having to turn back when Van Dorn attacked the army depot at Holly Springs. Therefore my impression is that Grant was frustrated on his part.
Good luck with that, to see it in that sequence you'll have to slog through PUSG because everyone keeps bolloxing up the narrative.
 
As has been shown, the conception of the plan fully recognized that the Confederate Army could potentially fall back to the east. We know this from extensive contemporary correspondence.

So, this entire conversation basically died coming out of the gate on the first comment as the people commenting on this were not familiar with the actual plan or situation as it was developed or existed at the time.

Right out of the gate, on the first comment, it was shown that Mr. Baldwin and possibly Mr. Calistri, as well (certainly the other user) are not even familiar with the contemporary record or the actual formulation of the plan as it was articulated, nor of the situation as it was being reported at the time. It was not an auspicious start, to say the least, as I noted above.

If Ned and Tony (and/or @SSVilla) would like to discuss this somewhere without the other user, I would be happy to. I don't have much interest in wasting my time otherwise though, unfortunately.
 
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Thanks for the correction. That is now a very interesting topic for me to read on after I untangle this Iuka/Corinth thing (as well as I can anyway.)

Grant tended in his memoirs to make much about having to turn back when Van Dorn attacked the army depot at Holly Springs. Therefore my impression is that Grant was frustrated on his part.
I should say, the Federal side of those points is all in PUSG.

The discovery that Grant had withdrawn from Pemberton's front is in the OR December 25th. Vaughn had been ordered to Vicksburg on the 23rd (also OR), Gregg on the 24th (not found in OR, but in Flavel Barber diary).
 
I should say, the Federal side of those points is all in PUSG.

The discovery that Grant had withdrawn from Pemberton's front is in the OR December 25th. Vaughn had been ordered to Vicksburg on the 23rd (also OR), Gregg on the 24th (not found in OR, but in Flavel Barber diary).
But getting back to this thread, lest someone picks up that point and derail it. As you correctly acknowledged, my original point about the Vicksburg campaign in December 1862 wasn't so much about discussing the campaign itself, but about how the disappointing outcome at Chickasaw Bluffs and Holly Springs in 1862 could have spawned a toxic blame game and finger pointing between Grant and Sherman if either of them was inclined to go down that road. They were not about that and so they didn't.

The rest of that original post can stay the same and unchanged.
 

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