Ramrods at reenactments

[7thWisconsin]

It really is! She was there with the Pride of Baltimore for the Yorktown 200th. (I live about 2 miles from where the Niagara is berthed. They cruise her around the bay in the spring. It´s a beautiful sight.)

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Curious then why aluminum foil isn't listed in any of the period manuals and how these soldiers uneducated in the ways of safety were able to conduct battle without blowing more of themselves up than their targets. Also curious as to where all the accounts of misfires are, considering how many millions of rounds were spent.

NPS is a great organization, but by no means do they have a monopoly on safety or authenticity.

 

[Doc_Ralph]

View attachment 509728

There really is something about a full rigged ship under sail ¿no? We sailed out of Boston to the Festival of the Sea in Bristol, England in 1996. Instead of going to Ireland a six day blow sent us to Horta in the Azores.

Wow what a great idea experience! My days at sea are on modern cruise ships. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Curious then why aluminum foil isn't listed in any of the period manuals and how these soldiers uneducated in the ways of safety were able to conduct battle without blowing more of themselves up than their targets. Also curious as to where all the accounts of misfires are, considering how many millions of rounds were spent.

NPS is a great organization, but by no means do they have a monopoly on safety or authenticity.

Of course aluminum foil was not listed in the Civil War manuals. Oddly enough, it was another item that does not appear in General Gibbon's manual that was involved, aluminum foil wrapped bananas.

A History Of Bananas

At the World's Fair in 1876, Alexander Graham Bell showed the phone. At the same Fair, in a history of bananas was the first taste.

wholesalenutsanddriedfruit.com

Exhibition – Banana Craze

bananacraze.uniandes.edu.co

The History of Aluminum Foil Packaging

The origin of aluminum foil can be traced by to the early 1900s. Life Savers—one of today’s most popular candies—were first packaged in foil in 1913. To this day, the treats are encased in the world-famous aluminum foil tube. The uses of foil have grown over the past 100 years to a nearly...

kitchendance.com

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Okay, so, not to be obtuse, but follow me here…if items and steps not listed in period drill are being used in "modern" drill, and if there are, to this day, artillery reenactors getting injured from using non-period drill, and if there was no evident epidemic of soldiers in the civil war injuring themselves using period drill…

On what grounds of scientific or historical facts, or, frankly, practical safety concerns are these modern drills employed?

 

[Doc_Ralph]

Okay, so, not to be obtuse, but follow me here…if items and steps not listed in period drill are being used in "modern" drill, and if there are, to this day, artillery reenactors getting injured from using non-period drill, and if there was no evident epidemic of soldiers in the civil war injuring themselves using period drill…

On what grounds of scientific or historical facts, or, frankly, practical safety concerns are these modern drills employed?

To keep body parts

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

To keep body parts

You missed the part where there was no epidemic of missing body parts from the real guys. Adding tinfoil (or soda cans as you mentioned) seems to be attempting to reinvent the wheel, or worse.

 

[JerryD]

Sometimes I think people/society goes a little overboard these days........as anyone who grew up in the 70/80s knows, things we did all the time and enjoyed as kids, are often illegal or seldom allowed these days..........

Hey, I loved lawn darts!

 

[Doc_Ralph]

True there are no modern day mass casualties unless perhaps a piece were to go up. IMHO it's not a fear thing more than respect.

Dunno? That ramrod with arm attached made a believer out of me. Misfires are more common and we have well established procedures for that. You have your arm or body over the vent and it's fired you are gonna know it fast.

In the olden days - the worm was not used unless the tube was really clogged. And the vent was tended right up to when the command fire is given. One would have to be very quick or suffer wicked vent fire and gases.

 

[Doc_Ralph]

You missed the part where there was no epidemic of missing body parts from the real guys. Adding tinfoil (or soda cans as you mentioned) seems to be attempting to reinvent the wheel, or worse.

Them dang spectators and their **** trash disposal. Actually happened to us a couple of times.

 

[Rhea Cole]

You missed the part where there was no epidemic of missing body parts from the real guys. Adding tinfoil (or soda cans as you mentioned) seems to be attempting to reinvent the wheel, or worse.

If you will refer to the period report on the large number of unintended detonations & the traumatic amputations inflicted on #1's, the hazardous nature of period service will be revealed:

http://www.njacc.info/cannon_accidents.pdf

The examples begin in 1540 with a conquistador who suffered a traumatic amputation. Sadly, it does not stop there.

 

[Rhea Cole]

True there are no modern day mass casualties unless perhaps a piece were to go up. IMHO it's not a fear thing more than respect.

Dunno? That ramrod with arm attached made a believer out of me. Misfires are more common and we have well established procedures for that. You have your arm or body over the vent and it's fired you are gonna know it fast.

In the olden days - the worm was not used unless the tube was really clogged. And the vent was tended right up to when the command fire is given. One would have to be very quick or suffer wicked vent fire and gases.

A member of the Eli Lilly horse drawn battery suffered for his dedication to authentic drill.

As a relic of the era when # 3 laid his palm over the loose powder, the Civil War still included placing the palm over the friction primer at the order of, "Ready!" he did so.

I will spare you the photo of his hand where the friction primer & jet of white hot fire shot through the web of his left thumb.

By a supreme stroke of fortune, the friction primer, (+/-) the size of a .22 brass, missed the bones. The resulting scar reminds me of Moari tattoos.

Top 10 Traditional Maori tattoos Designs & Their Meanings

50+ best Maori tattoos designs and ideas for men and women, all types of Maori tattoos and what are their meanings, there are main 10 types of ....

tattoosme.com

So, in the drill established by the gifted Jim Lewis, NPS #3's place their fingers over the lanyard away from the primers.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

If you will refer to the period report on the large number of unintended detonations & the traumatic amputations inflicted on #1's, the hazardous nature of period service will be revealed:

http://www.njacc.info/cannon_accidents.pdf

The examples begin in 1540 with a conquistador who suffered a traumatic amputation. Sadly, it does not stop there.

The examples begin in 1997 with a welded cap blowing off a served piece. They then reference some older accounts, but I did note there is no annotation or sourcing. They are just a list of accounts with no way to trace the circumstances. Additionally, there are only two examples during the years of the civil war, also not annotated.

Our group will continue to demonstrate the correct drill, as we have, without modern interference, rather than leave interpretation up to the spectators.

 

[Rhea Cole]

The examples begin in 1997 with a welded cap blowing off a served piece. They then reference some older accounts, but I did note there is no annotation or sourcing. They are just a list of accounts with no way to trace the circumstances. Additionally, there are only two examples during the years of the civil war, also not annotated.

Our group will continue to demonstrate the correct drill, as we have, without modern interference, rather than leave interpretation up to the spectators.

You might want to read down a little further. Assuming that an NPS qualified gunner & instructor of over 20 years experience does not know of what he speaks is… in any case, the earliest date in the index is 1540. Make of that what you will. Any Google search will stand your hair on end.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

True there are no modern day mass casualties unless perhaps a piece were to go up. IMHO it's not a fear thing more than respect.

Dunno? That ramrod with arm attached made a believer out of me. Misfires are more common and we have well established procedures for that. You have your arm or body over the vent and it's fired you are gonna know it fast.

In the olden days - the worm was not used unless the tube was really clogged. And the vent was tended right up to when the command fire is given. One would have to be very quick or suffer wicked vent fire and gases.

I mean contemporary as in contemporary to the Civil War.

If it were as dangerous for the crew behind the gun as folks are insinuating, we ought to be able to find, statistically speaking, a never ending stream of newspaper accounts of soldiers getting blown up by their own actions. But we don't. Why not?

Compared to the number of rounds fired from 1861-1865, the stuff we do as a hobby is a pittance.

So there should be a 50+ page list of incidents of arms and hands being blown off from the period. But there's not. Why not?

 

[James Brenner]

There are three aspects to consider with artillery: safety, historical, and legal. Because legal implications trump the other two, modern artillery drill is a compromise between what was common (historical) and what is now practical (safety).

If something goes wrong involving artillery, it is usually catastrophic. Event organizers are very much aware of that and that is why training certification is required. Additionally, the use of established guidelines for crewing artillery is more than just a convenient how-to guide. Any investigation into an accident will look at those standards to see if they were followed. If not, the word negligence comes to mind and could influence the amount of damages awarded. If it is a national, state, or local government entity sponsoring the event, the perception of deep pockets comes into play.

The upshot is that accidents do happen, but the safeguards that are in place - welders gloves, tin foil, ear plugs, and lengthy intervals between rounds - minimize the number of accidents that occur and, if one happens, minimize the injury. They may not be historically correct, but they are an acceptable trade off.

FWIW.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

There are three aspects to consider with artillery: safety, historical, and legal. Because legal implications trump the other two, modern artillery drill is a compromise between what was common (historical) and what is now practical (safety).

If something goes wrong involving artillery, it is usually catastrophic. Event organizers are very much aware of that and that is why training certification is required. Additionally, the use of established guidelines for crewing artillery is more than just a convenient how-to guide. Any investigation into an accident will look at those standards to see if they were followed. If not, the word negligence comes to mind and could influence the amount of damages awarded. If it is a national, state, or local government entity sponsoring the event, the perception of deep pockets comes into play.

The upshot is that accidents do happen, but the safeguards that are in place - welders gloves, tin foil, ear plugs, and lengthy intervals between rounds - minimize the number of accidents that occur and, if one happens, minimize the injury. They may not be historically correct, but they are an acceptable trade off.

FWIW.

I think this has been long regarded to be true within the hobby regarding legality, but I don't believe it to be the case. Otherwise I don't believe organizations such as 1st Section would be allowed to perform the authentic drill.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I mean contemporary as in contemporary to the Civil War.

If it were as dangerous for the crew behind the gun as folks are insinuating, we ought to be able to find, statistically speaking, a never ending stream of newspaper accounts of soldiers getting blown up by their own actions. But we don't. Why not?

Compared to the number of rounds fired from 1861-1865, the stuff we do as a hobby is a pittance.

So there should be a 50+ page list of incidents of arms and hands being blown off from the period. But there's not. Why not?

Why not indeed! The simple answer is that you haven't looked for it. Google the topic & a plethora of citations will be there for your dilatation.

I mean contemporary as in contemporary to the Civil War.

If it were as dangerous for the crew behind the gun as folks are insinuating, we ought to be able to find, statistically speaking, a never ending stream of newspaper accounts of soldiers getting blown up by their own actions. But we don't. Why not?

Compared to the number of rounds fired from 1861-1865, the stuff we do as a hobby is a pittance.

So there should be a 50+ page list of incidents of arms and hands being blown off from the period. But there's not. Why not?

My goodness, does the phrase sampling error ring a bell? This is not some kind of abstract intellectual exercise to me. As the tallest man on the he crew, I have been #1 on over 2,000 rounds. So far I have my arm & all five fingers.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

Why not indeed! The simple answer is that you haven't looked for it. Google the topic & a plethora of citations will be there for your dilatation.

My goodness, does the phrase sampling error ring a bell?

It's not the responsibility of the one challenging the claim to provide examples. My challenge is that the folks developing the drill would not have put drill procedures in place that would have put their men in more danger than is necessary, for a laundry list of reasons. You are welcome to post contemporary accounts (that is, from 1861-1865) that prove that danger of loading live rounds without tinfoil, but I would be surprised if you would be able to support your claim that modern methods are needed to protect folks from the danger of the ancient bronze tube and its magical black powder.

 

[Rhea Cole]

It's not the responsibility of the one challenging the claim to provide examples. My challenge is that the folks developing the drill would not have put drill procedures in place that would have put their men in more danger than is necessary, for a laundry list of reasons. You are welcome to post contemporary accounts (that is, from 1861-1865) that prove that danger of loading live rounds without tinfoil, but I would be surprised if you would be able to support your claim that modern methods are needed to protect folks from the danger of the ancient bronze tube and its magical black powder.

This has run its course.