Ramrods at reenactments

[Rhea Cole]

I´ve reenacted for about 50 years now, and the ¨no ramrods¨ policy has been solidly in place that entire time. I abide by it. I have attended campaign-oriented events where numbers were small and distances large where we used ramrods. It was a better experience. The gun fires more reliably with compressed powder. Also, the rate of fire is slowed down to something more realistic. I honestly think the danger threatened by ramrods is hyperbole. If you teach a firer how to load the musket, he´ll do it correctly. There are not so many of us that we can´t watch each other. Even if it´s fired, a ramrod wobbles about 20-30 yards and you shouldn´t be shooting at that range anyway. I´d like to see the rule fade away like other reenactorisms. Do I think it will? No. It´s firmly entrenched in reenacting culture. I have a hard time believing the waiver we sign would protect someone in our litigious society. With the hobby clearly drawing down, though, this might be an excellent opportunity to revisit some of our dearly-cherished concepts and bring them into a modern understanding of safety and historicity.

Whatever the perceived risk of a ramrod fired from a musket may be, the yearly casualty rate from reenactor cannon mishaps is a cautionary example.

Black powder cannon accidents 1996-2003:

http://www.njacc.info/cannon_accidents.pdf

It is one thing to fling a ramrod at a participant, it is a whole 'nother thing to strike a visitor.

I agree 100% that the frantic rapid fire seen at reacting events has little to do with how Civil War battles were fought. The loading in nine times of living history demonstrations is a much more accurate depiction.

I come from the red leg community where rapid fire is the source of annual traumatic amputations. A visitor sitting at a picnic table was struck & leg was broken by the head of a ramrod at Ticonderoga State Park. Hit a visitor with a musket ramrod & discover how good the liability insurance really is.

It is glaring obvious to me that the cost benefit of musket ramrods vs no ramrods is inarguable.

 

[JerryD]

Guess that explains why they often look as if shooting at a strafing plane......otherwise powder wouldn't remain in place.

Assume revolvers at least use wax or some minimal wadding.

I may be wrong on this, but I think that is due to an effort to follow standard gun safety rules and not point a gun, even an unloaded gun, at anyone. So yes, it looks like they are shooting at the sky.

 

[captaindrew]

Did he survive? If he did, (or not) he had a real Civil War experience!

Yes he survived, if I remember correctly (can't believe it was almost 30 years ago) it wasn't a life or limb threatening wound thankfully. The person that fired it I think was visiting from Europe (France maybe?) and was using a borrowed weapon (a revolver I believe) that obviously hadn't been inspected properly.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Yes he survived, if I remember correctly (can't believe it was almost 30 years ago) it wasn't a life or limb threatening wound thankfully. The person that fired it I think was visiting from Europe (France maybe?) and was using a borrowed weapon (a revolver I believe) that obviously hadn't been inspected properly.

CBS News account of the 1998 incident:

Pain In The Neck At Gettysburg

Injury At Civil War Battle Re-enactment

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Rhea Cole]

Did he survive? If he did, (or not) he had a real Civil War experience!

News account of the incident:

Pain In The Neck At Gettysburg

Injury At Civil War Battle Re-enactment

www.cbsnews.com

 

[7thWisconsin]

Whatever the perceived risk of a ramrod fired from a musket may be, the yearly casualty rate from reenactor cannon mishaps is a cautionary example.

Black powder cannon accidents 1996-2003:

http://www.njacc.info/cannon_accidents.pdf

It is one thing to fling a ramrod at a participant, it is a whole 'nother thing to strike a visitor.

I agree 100% that the frantic rapid fire seen at reacting events has little to do with how Civil War battles were fought. The loading in nine times of living history demonstrations is a much more accurate depiction.

I come from the red leg community where rapid fire is the source of annual traumatic amputations. A visitor sitting at a picnic table was struck & leg was broken by the head of a ramrod at Ticonderoga State Park. Hit a visitor with a musket ramrod & discover how good the liability insurance really is.

It is glaring obvious to me that the cost benefit of musket ramrods vs no ramrods is inarguable.

Yeah, and that´s where the real rub is, isn´t it? It´s one thing for those on the field to take their chances. We all have approximately the same gear and education and a certain understanding of the dangers inherent in this crazy thing we´re doing. But spectators... they´re literally defenseless in every sense of the word. Firing one at a spectator would end up being a ¨cease fire. Freeze. Everybody off the field and pack your bags. Kiss this event good-bye.¨ I´m not even sure how to start the conversation around changing that. (Maybe allowing participants to ram their first cartridge only? Which can be done in a controlled environment giving at least a taste of how it´s really done?)

 

[Rhea Cole]

Yeah, and that´s where the real rub is, isn´t it? It´s one thing for those on the field to take their chances. We all have approximately the same gear and education and a certain understanding of the dangers inherent in this crazy thing we´re doing. But spectators... they´re literally defenseless in every sense of the word. Firing one at a spectator would end up being a ¨cease fire. Freeze. Everybody off the field and pack your bags. Kiss this event good-bye.¨ I´m not even sure how to start the conversation around changing that. (Maybe allowing participants to ram their first cartridge only? Which can be done in a controlled environment giving at least a taste of how it´s really done?)

Our local University fired one shot & one shot only from a 12 pound Napoleon after a touchdown. A 12 year old girl ducked under the grossly inadequate safety barrier & was maimed for life. 60% of a blackpowder charge is ejected as particulate matter. 75 yards down range is the standard safety zone.

 

[7thWisconsin]

Our local University fired one shot & one shot only from a 12 pound Napoleon after a touchdown. A 12 year old girl ducked under the grossly inadequate safety barrier & was maimed for life. 60% of a blackpowder charge is ejected as particulate matter. 75 yards down range is the standard safety zone.

That´s truly tragic. It seems trite to say, but it´s the truth: you can´t predict what people will do. How many times have you said ¨I´ve never seen anything like that before¨ when other people are involved.

 

[Rhea Cole]

That´s truly tragic. It seems trite to say, but it´s the truth: you can´t predict what people will do. How many times have you said ¨I´ve never seen anything like that before¨ when other people are involved.

That´s truly tragic. It seems trite to say, but it´s the truth: you can´t predict what people will do. How many times have you said ¨I´ve never seen anything like that before¨ when other people are involved.

http://www.njacc.info/cannon_accidents.pdf

This listing of black powder cannon accidents makes for sobering reading.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

I just read all that and it DOES make sobering reading. All very sad tales and a lot of it is "premature ignition."

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

@UCVRelics

Have you heard of this?

Vol. 18, No. 3 Summer 1997 Pg. 2
As longtime readers know, we have several times published
National Safety Rules for artillery firing and we offer free
additional copies. Some of you have ordered copies to give out
or have sent names of people you think should become familiar
with safe shooting rules.
Our offer still stands. If you see unsafe practices, try to
correct them and we'd be happy to send the rules to the parties
involved.
What brings this to mind is a recent Associated Press story
headlined " Teen Injured in Cannon Blast Gets Robotic Arm."
According to the newspaper account Billy Gibbs, 17, was
ramming and sponging a 12 pdr. Napoleon during the March
reenactment of Cuba Station in Demopolis, AL.
Gibbs had rammed a pound of black powder down the barrel. "
I was in charge of getting the sparks out," he told the reporter.
"I rammed the charge down, felt a loud flash and the ramrod took
most of my hand off. I laid on the ground and [at first] I
couldn't feel my hand. The I could feel pain like you're not
supposed to feel."
According to the orthopedic hand surgeon, the hand lost a
thumb, the tops of the other fingers were badly damaged and the
two major nerves of the hand were "totally blasted apart." The
doctor said, "It was worst than anything I've seen, even in the
Gulf War." The hand was amputated and Gibbs has been fitted with an artificial hand.

 

[Rhea Cole]

@UCVRelics

Have you heard of this?

Vol. 18, No. 3 Summer 1997 Pg. 2
As longtime readers know, we have several times published
National Safety Rules for artillery firing and we offer free
additional copies. Some of you have ordered copies to give out
or have sent names of people you think should become familiar
with safe shooting rules.
Our offer still stands. If you see unsafe practices, try to
correct them and we'd be happy to send the rules to the parties
involved.
What brings this to mind is a recent Associated Press story
headlined " Teen Injured in Cannon Blast Gets Robotic Arm."
According to the newspaper account Billy Gibbs, 17, was
ramming and sponging a 12 pdr. Napoleon during the March
reenactment of Cuba Station in Demopolis, AL.
Gibbs had rammed a pound of black powder down the barrel. "
I was in charge of getting the sparks out," he told the reporter.
"I rammed the charge down, felt a loud flash and the ramrod took
most of my hand off. I laid on the ground and [at first] I
couldn't feel my hand. The I could feel pain like you're not
supposed to feel."
According to the orthopedic hand surgeon, the hand lost a
thumb, the tops of the other fingers were badly damaged and the
two major nerves of the hand were "totally blasted apart." The
doctor said, "It was worst than anything I've seen, even in the
Gulf War." The hand was amputated and Gibbs has been fitted with an artificial hand.

For those members not familiar with #1's position on the cannon crew, they use the sponge rammer to clear the barrel & ram the charge. #1 is stepping forward & about to sponge or ram the charge.

#3 is blocking the vent with his thumb. This prevents air getting into the barrel as #1 withdraws the sponge. A partial vacuum is created. The sponge comes out with a resonant popgun sound.

Premature detonation occurs when live embers are left. If #3 does not stop the vent or is not there at all, withdrawing the sponge sucks in a surprising jet of air. The live embers can detonate the charge as it is being rammed.

It is counter intuitive, but as the entry in the cannon accident says, a wet sponge does not extinguish embers the way you might think. The water child a hard crust around the ember. The ramming breaks open the crust & boom!

#1 always points his thumb toward the sponge. Held the other way the hand locks onto shaft with catastrophic results.

Parks Canada placed just about everything flammable in a cannon to see how long it would burn. 7 minutes was the longest before the oxygen ran out. That is the data that supports the 150% ten minute wait between rounds mandated by the NPS & many state park systems.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

The ramrod for a cannon is significantly larger and more noticeable than the ramrod for a rifle or musket.

I am a little surprised blackpowder weapons fire effectively unrammed, but I suppose the presence or absence of a bullet makes a big difference.

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

It is counter intuitive, but as the entry in the cannon accident says, a wet sponge does not extinguish embers the way you might think. The water child a hard crust around the ember. The ramming breaks open the crust & boom!

That's what I didn't understand - it is counter intuitive. I didn't realize the water chills a hard crust around the ember. That is crazy AND interesting! So that's why stopping the vent is SO important when swabbing out. Just like puffing a fire to get it going.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

I would put money on 99/100 of these accidents being the result of improper training, lack of coverage, use of modern or incorrect drill, or the like. The number of times I've seen folks rushed onto the field (infantry, artillery, cavalry, mainstream and campaigner) without proper training or instruction is shocking and a significant factor why our group no longer supports battle reenactments, per se.

I don't understand why an event organizer would put spectators "downrange" in the first place. If they can't accommodate spectators without making them a part of the battle, maybe organizers need to rethink whether a standard small town "Civil War Days" battle reenactment at the local park is worth putting on.

 

[Doc_Ralph]

It has been proven again and again that when fired, a ramorod travels at most 20 feet. The only exception to this is when it is fired, with a wad, at extreme elevation. Videos posted below.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

It's not going to put your life in danger, that's just silly hyperbole.

Artillery reenactors are expected to put the rammer down the piece. Why should it be any different with infantry? If you follow the proper loading procedure, one's hand does not even come off the rammer.

I mean, if your arguing that events should move away from silly depictions of combat, then I guess I agree with you.

I have heard from my infantry friends that pouring powder in and no ram is standard these days. To be historically accurate the rammers could be employed with indeed well drilled folks.

There is no way I am going stay (thumb stall) hand on the piece's vent until the command for fire is given. Historical accuracy or not.

There are very well established procedures that are modern to keep us from loosing major body parts.

Ramrods are essential to seat the round but t have only heard and seen one major artillery ramrod accident. Bad bad bad …

Don't let it fool you… Flames and hot gases can shoot upwards for many feet. Artilleryis very dangerous and this I know from after my third School of the piece.

Couple things.

One, I would be much more concerned about the distances (or lack thereof) routinely observed at mainstream events than drill practiced by campaigners.

Two, can someone please explain why no one ever complains that artillery uses "rammers"? I mean they're human, they could forget theirs in the barrel just as easily as an infantryman.

i know of one video of a ramrod launch with arm hanging on to it and it wis not a pretty sight even from a distance. That is one of the dangers and actually launching a ramrod would be another. IMHO Today there are plenty of Safety Officers and zones. It would have to be a total FUBAR to leave a ramrod in a piece.

 

[The Ninth Ohio]

I have heard from my infantry friends that pouring powder in and no ram is standard these days. To be historically accurate the rammers could be employed with indeed well drilled folks.

There is no way I am going stay (thumb stall) hand on the piece's vent until the command for fire is given. Historical accuracy or not.

There are very well established procedures that are modern to keep us from loosing major body parts.

Ramrods are essential to seat the round but t have only heard and seen one major artillery ramrod accident. Bad bad bad …

Don't let it fool you… Flames and hot gases can shoot upwards for many feet. Artilleryis very dangerous and this I know from after my third School of the piece.

i know of one video of a ramrod launch with arm hanging on to it and it wis not a pretty sight even from a distance. That is one of the dangers and actually launching a ramrod would be another. IMHO Today there are plenty of Safety Officers and zones. It would have to be a total FUBAR to leave a ramrod in a piece.

These drills were developed by guys whose lives actually depended on the thing functioning properly and not blowing up. There is absolutely no need to add a "modern twist" to the drills, as they are safe as long as the people are doing them are doing them as prescribed, and are doing them with the correct tools and equipment.

I went ahead and skimmed through the PDF that was posted, and those accounts were sobering indeed, not because firing a cannon is inherently dangerous, but because of the incredibly irresponsible things being done, and the elasticity of the word "cannon."

Cannon blows up on Boy Scout. May have used wadding, or possibly a potato.

"Cannon" (a pipe stopped up on one end, aka a pipe bomb) blows up 4th of July celebrants.

Cannon didn't fire, crew just shrugged and loaded another one, which blew up "unexpectedly."

 

[NH Civil War Gal]

These drills were developed by guys whose lives actually depended on the thing functioning properly and not blowing up. There is absolutely no need to add a "modern twist" to the drills, as they are safe as long as the people are doing them are doing them as prescribed, and are doing them with the correct tools and equipment.

I went ahead and skimmed through the PDF that was posted, and those accounts were sobering indeed, not because firing a cannon is inherently dangerous, but because of the incredibly irresponsible things being done, and the elasticity of the word "cannon."

Cannon blows up on Boy Scout. May have used wadding, or possibly a potato.

"Cannon" (a pipe stopped up on one end, aka a pipe bomb) blows up 4th of July celebrants.

Cannon didn't fire, crew just shrugged and loaded another one, which blew up "unexpectedly."

Or trying to fire hot dog buns. How stupid.

 

[Cavalier]

I don't have a dog in this fight, not being a reenactor myself, however as far as the participants are concerned it doesn't seem like a hobby fraught with danger generally, ramrods or no ramrods. My niece sky dives, a pal was killed when his motorcycle hit a truck, every once in a while a hunter is accidentally shot, horsey people occasionally get thrown, (I think an actor fellow ended up in a wheel chair from that). Is there a hobby outside of something like stamp collecting where no accidents ever occur?

John

 

[Virginia Dave]

I don't have a dog in this fight, not being a reenactor myself, however as far as the participants are concerned it doesn't seem like a hobby fraught with danger generally, ramrods or no ramrods. My niece sky dives, a pal was killed when his motorcycle hit a truck, every once in a while a hunter is accidentally shot, horsey people occasionally get thrown, (I think an actor fellow ended up in a wheel chair from that). Is there a hobby outside of something like stamp collecting where no accidents ever occur?

John

Even with stamp collection you can get terrible paper cuts.