Quantrill. Good soldier?

[Waterloo50]

It's been mentioned a few times on this thread that when looking at men like Quantrill, it's important to look at him in the context of his time. If people look at Quantrill and his exploits through modern eyes and thinking then his behaviour will appear demonic. With any historical situation, it is vital to understand the relationship between the people that lived and their experiences of life, alongside their core values and belief systems, in other words I think we should try our best to put ourselves in their shoes, maybe things look a little different from another perspective.

 

[alexjack]

I've just started reading ' Cole Younger by Himself '. I'm going to have to find an impartial book about him, he's another fascinating character. This one I'm reading I believe contains a lot of inaccuracies although I believe he thinks he is telling the truth. I've read a little about the Youngers during their time with the James gang and took them to be from poor frontier/ farmer stock but that doesn't seem to be true, his great grandmother was a daughter of Lighthorse Harry Lee and his father worked for the US government and was murdered by Missouri Federal Militia.

 

[Borderruffian]

This Paul Peterson, what would his motivation be for trying to absolve Quantrill of his wrong doings? I must look him up.

Peterson is a retired USMCR Msgt and I believe his civvie side occupation was in education he is also native to "Quantrill Country in Western Missouri (Raytown to exact) he goes out of his way to present WCQ as a virtuios southern patriot in fact he goes out of his way in trying to paint all of WCQ'S of salvation and light whereever they went and let's face it they did some pretty shadey stuff beginning with Lawrence.

His books include Quantrill:the making of aguerilla,Quantrill in Texas,&QUANTRILL in Lawrence. IMO he includes Data that "Fits his agena in making WCQ into more of a "knight of the brush" and benvolent protector " of southern virtue as well as the best ever mounted leader and bravest man that ever forked a horse and strapped on colt navies.Which I find insulting given he's leaving out critisal info or explaining it away.

Yes WCQ was a good mounted leader and great at small unit tactics as well as tactics that confused the Federals and he was realatively adapt at knowing when and what to strike but he ain't all that and a bag of chips.

 

[Borderruffian]

I'm not familiar with Peterson, but I'm sure Borderruffian can enlighten us. There is a William Clark Quantrill society of hero worshippers to this day. I find that a bit bizarre. If you have read all my posts, I think you can tell that I try to be objective about him and I believe he had a duality in his personality that allowed him to be chivalrous and even fair minded at times--but he certainly earned a lot of the demonizing that befell him. It is almost impossible to discuss him because most people are so divided in their opinions of him--and neither side wants to be persuaded by the other point of view. I used to be that way about him, too.

Yeah WCQ does have a reputation that is one way or the other, I grew up hearing what great and saintly man he was along with all the "boys in the brush" . alot certainly not all of the demonic rep comes from the offical reports and newspapers of the day as well as post war recollections of Unionists and the like that served as history pretty much till McCorkles book went into print and that was a 180 from the others like most partisan recllections are so you have to sort wheat from chaff and pretty much read between the lines and maybe you can get a kernal of fact concerning him.

The WCQ SOCIETY IS DEVOUTED TO ROBING AS A SAINT IN FACT i THINK HE IS THEIR PATRON SAINT.

 

[Borderruffian]

I've just started reading ' Cole Younger by Himself '. I'm going to have to find an impartial book about him, he's another fascinating character. This one I'm reading I believe contains a lot of inaccuracies although I believe he thinks he is telling the truth. I've read a little about the Youngers during their time with the James gang and took them to be from poor frontier/ farmer stock but that doesn't seem to be true, his great grandmother was a daughter of Lighthorse Harry Lee and his father worked for the US government and was murdered by Missouri Federal Militia.

Coleman "Bud" Younger was one of WCQ's better LT's he left the band to recruit in NM and ended up going to California tfor the rest of the war. His father Henry Younger was killed and robbed by either MSM possibly Penicks Thieves but maybe not or Kansasn's stationed in the KC area. The officer in command anfnd a few others were to be court martialed but Cole KILLED THE BALANCE BEFORE IT COULD BE CONVENED,Henry Younger had a Federal Mail contract and several business's including a livery stable in Harrisonville Mo that was routinely "jayhawkrd" early on by Kansas "Soldiers"
His moyther and younger brothers were displaced by order 11 and his mother burned the family home.

 

[Patrick H]

I've just started reading ' Cole Younger by Himself '. I'm going to have to find an impartial book about him, he's another fascinating character. This one I'm reading I believe contains a lot of inaccuracies although I believe he thinks he is telling the truth. I've read a little about the Youngers during their time with the James gang and took them to be from poor frontier/ farmer stock but that doesn't seem to be true, his great grandmother was a daughter of Lighthorse Harry Lee and his father worked for the US government and was murdered by Missouri Federal Militia.

This is a truly fascinating book. Wait until he talks about Northfield. If he's telling the truth, Jesse and Frank were never caught there because they were never along in the first place! He was a very good Lt. for Quantrill and, apparently, a fearless fighter.

 

[diane]

This is a truly fascinating book. Wait until he talks about Northfield. If he's telling the truth, Jesse and Frank were never caught there because they were never along in the first place! He was a very good Lt. for Quantrill and, apparently, a fearless fighter.

I'm wanting to get this book, too. But, if Frank and Jesse weren't in Northfield, who killed Joseph Heywood? Is there any map of the route the gang took? I think one of the things that makes Jesse enduring is you can't tell if he's a vet with PTSD or just a criminal - the Yankees done me wrong and that's my excuse. Either he just couldn't wind down after the war or he liked his job! Ironically, just when he did start winding down and decided maybe farming was enough excitement, that dirty little coward shot Mr Howard - but isn't that always the way of it. As you say, Jesse and Quantrill, both less than admirable, catch a glitter because of the situation in Missouri. People who went through it could understand their actions, and they passed it on.

By the way...is Quantrill's head still in that refrigerator?

 

[Patrick H]

By the way...is Quantrill's head still in that refrigerator?

Diane, I'm not sure if his head is still above the sod. It's his skull actually, although I'm sure someone had a wax replica head somewhere. You know that parts of him are buried in three different places.

As for Cole, you can read his book online at this link:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24585/24585-h/24585-h.html

I am sure I've seen a site where you could download it in any of a variety of formats, including Kindle and PDF, but I regret I can't find that link at the moment.

 

[diane]

Diane, I'm not sure if his head is still above the sod. It's his skull actually, although I'm sure someone had a wax replica head somewhere. You know that parts of him are buried in three different places.

As for Cole, you can read his book online at this link:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24585/24585-h/24585-h.html

I am sure I've seen a site where you could download it in any of a variety of formats, including Kindle and PDF, but I regret I can't find that link at the moment.

Thanks, Patrick! I want to look at that. Ever since my husband's aunt gave us a letter about his family's close encounter with the James' gang I've been interested. Hubby's great-aunt was 4 years old at the time and the letter said Frank James played with her most of the evening. Old man Conrad ended up giving them the heave-ho later in the night! They got to being too rowdy and he said they had to leave. Frank was cool with it and agreed as there were children around. I guess not everybody can say their ancestor 86'd the James-Younger gang!

 

[alexjack]

Thanks, Patrick! I want to look at that. Ever since my husband's aunt gave us a letter about his family's close encounter with the James' gang I've been interested. Hubby's great-aunt was 4 years old at the time and the letter said Frank James played with her most of the evening. Old man Conrad ended up giving them the heave-ho later in the night! They got to being too rowdy and he said they had to leave. Frank was cool with it and agreed as there were children around. I guess not everybody can say their ancestor 86'd the James-Younger gang!

Yes diane you can get it free for Kindle. Good book.

 

[alexjack]

I've been racking my brain Patrick to remember where I read about the James gang and of course Northfield but I remember thinking at the time that Cole Younger was a pretty forceful character and although Jesse was the gang leader, Cole took no nonsense from him.

 

[Borderruffian]

It's been mentioned a few times on this thread that when looking at men like Quantrill, it's important to look at him in the context of his time. If people look at Quantrill and his exploits through modern eyes and thinking then his behaviour will appear demonic. With any historical situation, it is vital to understand the relationship between the people that lived and their experiences of life, alongside their core values and belief systems, in other words I think we should try our best to put ourselves in their shoes, maybe things look a little different from another perspective.

The problem you come to with WCQ is he's very.very.devisive, you either love him or hate him except for those who actually look at the history and causes of the guerilla war in Missouri. Quantrill deservedly gets a bad rap for Lawrence for example,however if you look deeper you find reasons by the dozen as to why so many men were eager to take part in that raid and why Lawrence was considered the source of evil by many Missourians..

He get's a bad rap for no quarter warfare, but once partisans were labeled outlaws by "Old Brains" Hallack the federal and state forces took an equally small number of prisoners and paroled even a fewer number than WCQ did. Making or rather branding the Guerillas as Outlaws and Maurdars helped create the type warfare that followed and this was done at headquarters Dept. of Missouri, that G.O #2 instituted the no quarter on both sides so in effect Halleck reaped what he had sowen, as did the follow on Dept Commanders.

Other District Commanders did the same with confiscations, levies, banishments and imprisonments as well as some executions of civilians in response to raids,bridge burnings and other things. It can be argued with a fair bit of truth that the Guerilla war in Missouri was brought about by actions of the Union Command and the edicts of thr Provisional State Legislature in Jefferson City, that forced many men of Southern Heritage into the ranks of the Partisans.

Then the question becomes " Well why didn't they join the CS army?" When price was forced out of the state the only option left was the partisans, at least till a recruitment draft was able come from Arkansas and you had the Gamble Order that forced all Military aged men to enroll in th Militia they may not have wanted to fight the war but they sure didn't to be forced to fight what they considered their people, so they headed for brush and the partisans as the lesser of two evils.
These things all played a large part in the whole deal.

In West Missouri " Quantrill Country" the Jayhawker and Red Leg raids on civilians. the plundering of homes and stores and the burning of crops and stealing of livestock of pretty much any Missourian regardless of loyalty galvanized a great many men and boys to fight back and WCQ was one of the best ways to do it .

Quantrill gets a bad rap because many people now have only been taught about the Lawrence "MASSACRE" which it was not and of his taking no prisnors .And a asscociation with some aof the future outlaws he gets short shrift deserved or not.

I don't care for him because a doubt his reasons for siding with the south and I am not impressed with his crossing the river , this all rings false to the voices that call him a hero to me.

 

[hanna260]

It's been mentioned a few times on this thread that when looking at men like Quantrill, it's important to look at him in the context of his time. If people look at Quantrill and his exploits through modern eyes and thinking then his behaviour will appear demonic. With any historical situation, it is vital to understand the relationship between the people that lived and their experiences of life, alongside their core values and belief systems, in other words I think we should try our best to put ourselves in their shoes, maybe things look a little different from another perspective.

I really like this, Waterloo50. Shame people have to be so complicated and difficult to understand huh?

 

[Patrick H]

I've been racking my brain Patrick to remember where I read about the James gang and of course Northfield but I remember thinking at the time that Cole Younger was a pretty forceful character and although Jesse was the gang leader, Cole took no nonsense from him.

I hope Cole Younger and his excellent leadership as a lieutenant will keep us close enough to your original topic to prevent a warning from the moderators. If they are uncomfortable, I think we can easily launch a thread on Cole and we would have many pages of good conversation there.

When you read through Cole's book, you will see a couple of things about the James boys. First: Frank was Cole's best friend. Second: Cole just could not abide Jesse (who had been Little Archie's toady) Cole admits he went to rob at Northfield, but he says he never could have participated in such an enterprise with Jesse.

I think when they were boys, Cole could have given Jesse the ***** slapping smack down of his young life. After the war when John Edwards began building the Jesse James hero myth, things were different. For one thing, Cole spent TWENTY YEARS as a guest of the state in Minnesota. Well.....of course he deserved it. But he was away from the press and could not comment on his thoughts about Jesse.

I must confess to all of you that I don't know what to make of Cole's assertion that Frank and Jesse were never along in the first place. We talk about someone who walked into the bank and identified himself as a James, but anyone could have done that.

Just wait and see. This is one of those deals where most people already have their minds made up, and they don't want to be confused by anything we will write here. Just wait. That'll happen.

 

[Booner]

The problem you come to with WCQ is he's very.very.devisive, you either love him or hate him except for those who actually look at the history and causes of the guerilla war in Missouri. Quantrill deservedly gets a bad rap for Lawrence for example,however if you look deeper you find reasons by the dozen as to why so many men were eager to take part in that raid and why Lawrence was considered the source of evil by many Missourians..

He get's a bad rap for no quarter warfare, but once partisans were labeled outlaws by "Old Brains" Hallack the federal and state forces took an equally small number of prisoners and paroled even a fewer number than WCQ did. Making or rather branding the Guerillas as Outlaws and Maurdars helped create the type warfare that followed and this was done at headquarters Dept. of Missouri, that G.O #2 instituted the no quarter on both sides so in effect Halleck reaped what he had sowen, as did the follow on Dept Commanders.

Other District Commanders did the same with confiscations, levies, banishments and imprisonments as well as some executions of civilians in response to raids,bridge burnings and other things. It can be argued with a fair bit of truth that the Guerilla war in Missouri was brought about by actions of the Union Command and the edicts of thr Provisional State Legislature in Jefferson City, that forced many men of Southern Heritage into the ranks of the Partisans.

Then the question becomes " Well why didn't they join the CS army?" When price was forced out of the state the only option left was the partisans, at least till a recruitment draft was able come from Arkansas and you had the Gamble Order that forced all Military aged men to enroll in th Militia they may not have wanted to fight the war but they sure didn't to be forced to fight what they considered their people, so they headed for brush and the partisans as the lesser of two evils.
These things all played a large part in the whole deal.

In West Missouri " Quantrill Country" the Jayhawker and Red Leg raids on civilians. the plundering of homes and stores and the burning of crops and stealing of livestock of pretty much any Missourian regardless of loyalty galvanized a great many men and boys to fight back and WCQ was one of the best ways to do it .

Quantrill gets a bad rap because many people now have only been taught about the Lawrence "MASSACRE" which it was not and of his taking no prisnors .And a asscociation with some aof the future outlaws he gets short shrift deserved or not.

I don't care for him because a doubt his reasons for siding with the south and I am not impressed with his crossing the river , this all rings false to the voices that call him a hero to me.

I thought Borderruffian did an excellent job in describing the guerilla warfare in Missouri, To drive home some of the points he made, I'll repeat a story about my family my grandmother told me. My gg grandfather came to NW Missouri in the early 1850's to a little town outside of St. Joseph, in Andrew county, called Rochester.
Grandpa was a union man, and a justice of the peace, a member of the Enrolled Emergency Milltia. Sometime early in the war my gg grandfathers farm was attacked by Jayhawkers/Redlegs and horses were taken, furniture stolen, hogs killed and dumped down the well. The house and barn were burned. Grampa and family feared for their lives and hid out in the woods while all of this was going on.

As a Missourian, he was fair game for the Jayhawkers/Redlegs from Kansas. And as a union man, was also fair game for any southern sympathisers in the area. Is there any wonder why the Civil War in Missouri was so convoluted?

 

[Patrick H]

I thought Borderruffian did an excellent job in describing the guerilla warfare in Missouri, To drive home some of the points he made, I'll repeat a story about my family my grandmother told me. My gg grandfather came to NW Missouri in the early 1850's to a little town outside of St. Joseph, in Andrew county, called Rochester.
Grandpa was a union man, and a justice of the peace, a member of the Enrolled Emergency Milltia. Sometime early in the war my gg grandfathers farm was attacked by Jayhawkers/Redlegs and horses were taken, furniture stolen, hogs killed and dumped down the well. The house and barn were burned. Grampa and family feared for their lives and hid out in the woods while all of this was going on.

As a Missourian, he was fair game for the Jayhawkers/Redlegs from Kansas. And as a union man, was also fair game for any southern sympathisers in the area. Is there any wonder why the Civil War in Missouri was so convoluted?

We shouldn't derail the thread, but you've got it, Booner. Right there, you've got it. It was convoluted! Thus, Quantrill emerged as a hero to some and a demon to others...depending on their point of view.

 

[18thVirginia]

Them's true words and spoken well! That's always the problem in the Forrest forum. Just like Lawrence comes up - and honestly, as well - with Quantrill, Ft Pillow comes up - honestly - with Forrest. Lots of divisions with these people and that's what makes them interesting to discuss. Was Quantrill a good soldier or a dangerous psychopath? You could, without bending the evidence, argue it well both ways but proving either is elusive.

I'd say it was pretty easily proven that Quantrill was a dangerous psychopath.

How many other commanders in any unit, Confederate or Union, presided over the execution of 180-200 civilians while attacking a non-military target?

It's a simple measurement.

 

[Booner]

I'd say it was pretty easily proven that Quantrill was a dangerous psychopath.

How many other commanders in any unit, Confederate or Union, presided over the execution of 180-200 civilians while attacking a non-military target?

It's a simple measurement.

Well, there was the sacking of Osceola Mo. by Lanes Jayhawkers in Sept of 1861. The raid was totally Lanes idea and was not sanctioned by Union authorities. They burned the town of 3,000 people to the ground and executed 9 of the civilians. True, it didn't have the body count on a Lawrence but supposidly, Quantrills raid on Lawrence was in retribution for Lanes sacking of Osceola.

And Lawrence may be considered a military target as it was the home of Gen Lane and headquarters of the Jayhawkers and Redlegs since the time of Bleeding Kansas. Old feelings die hard.

And then there Gen Order #11 which cleared out most of 4 counties in Western Missouri, giving the residents, loyal or not to the federal government, 10 days to remove themselves before the government came in and burned everything in an effort to deny the guerillas any civilian support.

I have to disagree with your statement in that I don't think there is a simple measurement with regards to the actions of men like Quantrill. I thought Waterlo50s post at the top of this page said things rather well. You have to look at the man in the context of the time he lived in

 

[diane]

I'd say it was pretty easily proven that Quantrill was a dangerous psychopath.

How many other commanders in any unit, Confederate or Union, presided over the execution of 180-200 civilians while attacking a non-military target?

It's a simple measurement.

In part I agree, but it's too simple a measurement. There are several battles fought by no-doubt-about-it military that fit a category like that. Did dangerous psychopaths let go at Poison Springs? Well, it was actually retribution for the same unit acquiring a large kill number at another battle...and so it goes. These things don't just happen. And, when there's heavy underlying causes, sometimes the commanders lose control for a while. I think that's what happened to Quantrill in Lawrence.

 

[18thVirginia]

There may have been massacres of USCT at Poison Springs or at Ft. Pillow, but those were in the midst of a battle. Forrest is reviled by many for what he allowed to happen at Ft. Pillow, but having one's soldiers lose control doesn't rise to the same level as putting together a list of people to kill, including people who were on the list because they were abolitionists and going off to massacre people in a civilian town. Ft. Pillow was also a military target. Poison Springs was a military battle.

Being murderously angry because Lawrence had been a center of abolitionism and because one had been indicted as a horse thief there is totally different.

I've read the accounts of Quantrill in North Texas. These were simply outlaws who rode their horses into the general stores and let them eat out of the bags of flour. They shot up the towns, did the kinds of things that both sides are accused of in Missouri and Kansas--but this was on their same side. There are accounts are of the constant killing of each other by Quantrill's gang.

I remember reading a story by an old guy who'd been at a confrontation between Forrest and another officer during the war, where he said later they all thought for awhile that Forrest might shoot the officer over their disagreement. Quantrill and his guys did shoot each other. He was simply a murderous psychopath.