Quantrill. Good soldier?

[Waterloo50]

I know very little about Quantrill but on the few bits of information that I have read about him it would appear that the turning point in his attitude towards his role in the Civil War drastically changed in 1862. A few articles that I have read indicate that Quantrill changed for the worst when the Commander of the Department of Missouri, Major General Henry W. Halleck ordered that guerrillas such as Quantrill and his men should be treated as robbers and murderers, not normal prisoners of war. Before this proclamation, Quantrill acted as if he were a normal soldier adhering to principals of accepting enemy surrender. After this, he gave an order to give 'no quarter'.
Do other people hold this to be true, was Quantrill a reasonable man up until Halleck gave the order to treat Quantrill as a robber and a murderer. I also read that some female relatives of the raiders were killed when a prison collapsed and this was also a reason that the raiders gave no quarter.

 

[alexjack]

Waterloo. There's some great links about Quantrill on page three of this thread provided by Patrick H. They're well worth a read.

 

[leftyhunter]

I know very little about Quantrill but on the few bits of information that I have read about him it would appear that the turning point in his attitude towards his role in the Civil War drastically changed in 1862. A few articles that I have read indicate that Quantrill changed for the worst when the Commander of the Department of Missouri, Major General Henry W. Halleck ordered that guerrillas such as Quantrill and his men should be treated as robbers and murderers, not normal prisoners of war. Before this proclamation, Quantrill acted as if he were a normal soldier adhering to principals of accepting enemy surrender. After this, he gave an order to give 'no quarter'.
Do other people hold this to be true, was Quantrill a reasonable man up until Halleck gave the order to treat Quantrill as a robber and a murderer. I also read that some female relatives of the raiders were killed when a prison collapsed and this was also a reason that the raiders gave no quarter.

Maybe look at it this way ; guerrilla warfare does not bring out the warm fuzzies in people. Even in Northern Ireland the British Army in particular the Ulster Defense Regiment didn't always play by the rules and their casualties where less then the COIN troops in Missouri. Confederate troops also killed captured guerrillas the Shelton Laurel massacre being a good example.Actually it was Confederate militia. None the less world wide guerrilla warfare is not played by the Marqis of Queensbury rules.
Your right about the female prisoners at the Garriot Street Prison in St Louis.
Leftyhunter

 

[Nathanb1]

http://civilwartalk.com/forums/the-south-western-theaters.91/

Enjoy. Lots of stuff from Patrick, Borderruffian, and others.

 

[Waterloo50]

Waterloo. There's some great links about Quantrill on page three of this thread provided by Patrick H. They're well worth a read.

Thanks I will take a look.
PS...Do you recommend the book that you have just read on Quantrill?

 

[alexjack]

Yes it was very good but the PDF version which Patrick H recommended to me was much better than the Kindle version in that the author, Connelly's footnotes only appear in the PDF version and they contain much more information.

 

[Waterloo50]

Yes it was very good but the PDF version which Patrick H recommended to me was much better than the Kindle version in that the author, Connelly's footnotes only appear in the PDF version and they contain much more information.

Thanks mate,
I'm interested to know what you think about Quantrill, your original post on the subject was interesting, were you surprised at the negative comments posted about him. It seems that a lot of people have quite strong feelings about him, I haven't seen any other civil war character elicit such strong responses.

 

[alexjack]

The author Connelley at first seemed really anti Quantrill and he made me feel the same way, for instance reading about the Lawrence massacre I got quite angry. By the end of the book, rightly or wrongly, my attitude to Quantrill softened a bit although I still believe he did what he did not through any love for the Southern cause but for his own ends, he was something of a rogue and a conman. My attitude softened because, like the Northern Ireland situation over here, one sides atrocities led to the other sides, the people who suffered were the ordinary folk who probably just wanted to get on with their lives. Quantrill seems a very complex character and as I said I felt just a little sympathy with him for the terrible reputation that he's ended up with, you might read the book and think he fully deserves it. Either way the whole Kansas/Missouri struggle is a fascinating aspect of the Civil War.

 

[diane]

The author Connelley at first seemed really anti Quantrill and he made me feel the same way, for instance reading about the Lawrence massacre I got quite angry. By the end of the book, rightly or wrongly, my attitude to Quantrill softened a bit although I still believe he did what he did not through any love for the Southern cause but for his own ends, he was something of a rogue and a conman. My attitude softened because, like the Northern Ireland situation over here, one sides atrocities led to the other sides, the people who suffered were the ordinary folk who probably just wanted to get on with their lives. Quantrill seems a very complex character and as I said I felt just a little sympathy with him for the terrible reputation that he's ended up with, you might read the book and think he fully deserves it. Either way the whole Kansas/Missouri struggle is a fascinating aspect of the Civil War.

That's basically my assessment of Quantrill, too. Jesse James, one of the kids who rode with him, has the same romantic coating but in the end, sorry, Jesse was a punk! (Gotta watch out for preachers kids anyway...) But there is a certain sympathy, there, as you note. Yes, you've gone done something to bring the hounds of doom onto your trail but gee, do you have to blow mom's arm off?

 

[Patrick H]

That's basically my assessment of Quantrill, too. Jesse James, one of the kids who rode with him, has the same romantic coating but in the end, sorry, Jesse was a punk! (Gotta watch out for preachers kids anyway...) But there is a certain sympathy, there, as you note. Yes, you've gone done something to bring the hounds of doom onto your trail but gee, do you have to blow mom's arm off?

Jesse was definitely a punk. He was a very clever and cunning punk, too. And he used John Newman Edwards to great advantage in building a P.R. image that lasts to this day in the minds of many people. However, I think Frank was by far the better man. He was probably one of the top men in Quantrill's whole outfit.

 

[Patrick H]

I know very little about Quantrill but on the few bits of information that I have read about him it would appear that the turning point in his attitude towards his role in the Civil War drastically changed in 1862. A few articles that I have read indicate that Quantrill changed for the worst when the Commander of the Department of Missouri, Major General Henry W. Halleck ordered that guerrillas such as Quantrill and his men should be treated as robbers and murderers, not normal prisoners of war. Before this proclamation, Quantrill acted as if he were a normal soldier adhering to principals of accepting enemy surrender. After this, he gave an order to give 'no quarter'.
Do other people hold this to be true, was Quantrill a reasonable man up until Halleck gave the order to treat Quantrill as a robber and a murderer. I also read that some female relatives of the raiders were killed when a prison collapsed and this was also a reason that the raiders gave no quarter.

I think this is a good perspective on Quantrill. The only thing I might disagree with is that I'm not aware of Quantrill ever issuing a "no quarter" order except at Lawrence. Halleck ordered that bushwhackers be summarily executed--not permitted to surrender. Even so, some were captured and taken to be judged before execution. Quantrill is known to have taken at least one captive for the purpose of a prisoner exchange. When he permitted this officer to go into town and negotiate the exchange. The officer came back (incredible sense of honor and integrity) and told Quantrill he was unable to affect the exchange. The Q man was executed. Quantrill so respected the union officer's bravery that he released him.

Anderson was more of a "no quarter" man, but even he saved one sergeant as a prisoner at Centralia. I believe Todd was, too. Little Archie Clements was horrible and he had influence over Jesse James. Get a pack of those guys together and their reputation will extend to everyone around them. Quantrill could no longer control these guys after the winter of 1863-1864.

 

[Borderruffian]

I know very little about Quantrill but on the few bits of information that I have read about him it would appear that the turning point in his attitude towards his role in the Civil War drastically changed in 1862. A few articles that I have read indicate that Quantrill changed for the worst when the Commander of the Department of Missouri, Major General Henry W. Halleck ordered that guerrillas such as Quantrill and his men should be treated as robbers and murderers, not normal prisoners of war. Before this proclamation, Quantrill acted as if he were a normal soldier adhering to principals of accepting enemy surrender. After this, he gave an order to give 'no quarter'.
Do other people hold this to be true, was Quantrill a reasonable man up until Halleck gave the order to treat Quantrill as a robber and a murderer. I also read that some female relatives of the raiders were killed when a prison collapsed and this was also a reason that the raiders gave no quarter.

I just don't care for WCQ, yes he was commissioned in the Partisan Service, yes he was a good mounted leader, yes early on he did capture and parole prisoners up until Hallcks order and even then he did not kill all that fell into his hands, he's interresting for sure.

I just don't buy that Ohio born WCQ a former "Jayhawker" pre-war (as was Bloody Bill) was really all that concerned with anything but WCQ. Yea he had some sucessful raids, however he started losing his band shortly after going to Richmond and it just went downhill from there until Prices Raid in64, where he showed up a Fayatte but refused to charge a garrison in brick buildings and RR tie blockhouses (really a pretty good decision) and later he robbed a bank in Glasgow and then took some men across the river to Kentucky, thinking that when the war ended it would be easier to surrender away from the Trans=Miss especially Missouri,I just don't care for him he was always going were he thought he"d get more and better butter on his biscut.

 

[Borderruffian]

That's basically my assessment of Quantrill, too. Jesse James, one of the kids who rode with him, has the same romantic coating but in the end, sorry, Jesse was a punk! (Gotta watch out for preachers kids anyway...) But there is a certain sympathy, there, as you note. Yes, you've gone done something to bring the hounds of doom onto your trail but gee, do you have to blow mom's arm off?

Jesse only rode with WCQ to Arkansas when WCQ was attempting to get across the river to Ky and left the band to go to Texas with some other of the members, I think Jim Anderson was one, Jesse really only rode as Bushwhacker with Bloody Bill in 64 and after Bills death with Arch Clements for a while .

 

[diane]

Jesse only rode with WCQ to Arkansas when WCQ was attempting to get across the river to Ky and left the band to go to Texas with some other of the members, I think Jim Anderson was one, Jesse really only rode as Bushwhacker with Bloody Bill in 64 and after Bills death with Arch Clements for a while .

I think it is like Patrick said - didn't take much association to have the reputation rub off on you. I kind of think Jesse's continued association with Bill and Arch showed his own leanings. Birds of a feather, as it were! But I don't think he was all bad, either. My husband's family on one side were German immigrants who had a bakery and hotel in Wisconsin - Frank James and some other members of the gang stopped over for bread and rest on their way to Northfield. Funny - the old man, Conrad, and two of his sons flipped over a blanket in the wagon to load up the baked goods and, lo and behold! Rifles. According to hubby's family, granddad Conrad said, "Yoost load dat bread und don't say nuttink!"

 

[Borderruffian]

Thanks I will take a look.
PS...Do you recommend the book that you have just read on Quantrill?

Try WilliamC. Quantrill his life and times by Casteel that gives alot of useful if not much liked by the WCQ Fans information on him.

Avoid Schultz Quantrills war its frought with inaccuries and any by Paul Peterson he has a serious Man Crush on Quantrill and I believe he spends more time trying ti absolve Quantrill of any and all sins than he does relating facts.

 

[civilken]

The only thing Quantrill ever qualified for was a good hanging.

 

[Waterloo50]

Avoid Schultz Quantrills war its frought with inaccuries and any by Paul Peterson he has a serious Man Crush on Quantrill and I believe he spends more time trying ti absolve Quantrill of any and all sins than he does relating facts.

This Paul Peterson, what would his motivation be for trying to absolve Quantrill of his wrong doings? I must look him up.

 

[Patrick H]

I'm not familiar with Peterson, but I'm sure Borderruffian can enlighten us. There is a William Clark Quantrill society of hero worshippers to this day. I find that a bit bizarre. If you have read all my posts, I think you can tell that I try to be objective about him and I believe he had a duality in his personality that allowed him to be chivalrous and even fair minded at times--but he certainly earned a lot of the demonizing that befell him. It is almost impossible to discuss him because most people are so divided in their opinions of him--and neither side wants to be persuaded by the other point of view. I used to be that way about him, too.

 

[Waterloo50]

I'm not familiar with Peterson, but I'm sure Borderruffian can enlighten us. There is a William Clark Quantrill society of hero worshippers to this day. I find that a bit bizarre. If you have read all my posts, I think you can tell that I try to be objective about him and I believe he had a duality in his personality that allowed him to be chivalrous and even fair minded at times--but he certainly earned a lot of the demonizing that befell him. It is almost impossible to discuss him because most people are so divided in their opinions of him--and neither side wants to be persuaded by the other point of view. I used to be that way about him, too.

Brilliant response Patrick H, to be honest Quantrill does elicit some pretty hostile responses, I think being objective when looking at the more controversial characters of history promotes further discussion. Its difficult to debate a character when people have already made their minds up.

 

[diane]

Brilliant response Patrick H, to be honest Quantrill does elicit some pretty hostile responses, I think being objective when looking at the more controversial characters of history promotes further discussion. Its difficult to debate a character when people have already made their minds up.

Them's true words and spoken well! That's always the problem in the Forrest forum. Just like Lawrence comes up - and honestly, as well - with Quantrill, Ft Pillow comes up - honestly - with Forrest. Lots of divisions with these people and that's what makes them interesting to discuss. Was Quantrill a good soldier or a dangerous psychopath? You could, without bending the evidence, argue it well both ways but proving either is elusive.