Quantrill. Good soldier?

[alexjack]

I am just finishing 'Quantrill and the Border Wars' by William Elsey Connelley which I got as a freebie Kindle download. It was published in 1909 and initially I thought the writer was going to be a bit too biased against Quantrill to be able to make any kind of balanced judgement about the man but as the book went on, Connelley, although merciless in his opinions of Quantrill, his morals and his guerillas depredations against the populations of Kansas and Missouri, seemed to be giving an unbiased slant to his operations in the field against, sometimes superior Federal forces. Now there are a lot of people on here who are far more qualified than me to judge Quantrills ability as the commander of a unit of cavalrymen/ mounted infantry and I would appreciate their comments because to a layman like me, he seemed to be a pretty capable tactician on the battlefield.

 

[thomas aagaard]

I would not call him a soldier.
He only held a rank as a irregular and only for about a year.
The CSA goverment withdrew support after he commited warcrimes.
I would call him a terrorist since he deliberately killed civilians and tried to kill "enemy" politicians. And did this to promote a political agenda.

And if we call him a soldier, he was a very bad one.
Lack of discipline, didn't follow even basic rules of war, deserted and acted in a way where his own government didn't want anything to do with him.

But He might have been a good leader of guerrillas and good at smal unit tactics...

 

[nextcity]

I call him a murderer.

 

[RebelHeart]

I like what @thomas aagaard said on the matter. Quantrill differed from guys like McNeill and Mosby in that he really didn't hold any kind of standard - military or civil - by which he recruited or operated. He accepted just about anyone into his command so long as they were willing to listen to him, holding little or no respect for protocol, honor, or legitimate purpose to his service. His command - if you could call it that - yielded the likes of 'Bloody Bill,' Frank and Jesse James, etc. His command was more like the Blackbeard of Missouri and Kansas in which he basically did as he pleased without great concern for whom was victimized while claiming to be committing his acts in the name of the Confederacy.

 

[alexjack]

I would not call him a soldier.
He only held a rank as a irregular and only for about a year.
The CSA goverment withdrew support after he commited warcrimes.
I would call him a terrorist since he deliberately killed civilians and tried to kill "enemy" politicians. And did this to promote a political agenda.

And if we call him a soldier, he was a very bad one.
Lack of discipline, didn't follow even basic rules of war, deserted and acted in a way where his own government didn't want anything to do with him.

But He might have been a good leader of guerrillas and good at smal unit tactics...

I take your point and I apologise to any current or ex soldiers for using the word 'soldier' in relation to him. Soldiering is an honourable calling and I know he was not an honourable man.

 

[diane]

Oh, we need @Patrick H in here!

I tend to think Quantrill started off more or less on the right path - he was a partisan ranger and under the Confederacy's Partisan Ranger Act was definitely a captain - but he sure attracted some of the most violent partisans in the war. I think you have to understand the background of why the war in Missouri was so violent and personal to understand why Quantrill was who he was.

 

[thomas aagaard]

I take your point and I apologise to any current or ex soldiers for using the word 'soldier' in relation to him. Soldiering is an honourable calling and I know he was not an honourable man.

Don't worry. I don't automatically hold soldiers to as high a regard as most do in the US.
History is full of soldiers who was not Honorable... and wearing a uniform is no guarantee that that a person is honorable.

But I do think there are some clear requirement to be a soldier.
The definition in the Geneva conventions are naturally not without problems when used on earlier times, but they are a place to start.

 

[Rebforever]

I take your point and I apologise to any current or ex soldiers for using the word 'soldier' in relation to him. Soldiering is an honourable calling and I know he was not an honourable man.

Full Definition of soldier

1. 
   1a : one engaged in military service and especially in the armyb : an enlisted man or womanc : a skilled warrior
   
   
2. 2: a militant leader, follower, or worker

I would say he was a soldier.

 

[thomas aagaard]

well, the Geneva conventions would disagree and so did the union and CSA army.

He was not in the CSA army and being a skilled warrior got nothing to do with what is a legal question.,

This is no different then a guy like John L. Burns... he was not a soldier.(in 1863)

 

[diane]

Actually, Quantrill wasn't a soldier - he was an irregular. It's interesting that the Confederacy had an act regarding these types of troops and they do come in handy. They don't have to have a commander responsible for what each of them does, they don't have to carry arms openly, they don't have to have uniforms or identify themselves...and they can come and go as needed. Because Quantrill was an irregular, Bloody Bill could just take himself and fellow travellers off on their own hook.

 

[johan_steele]

The CS govt did not consider him a soldier. Neither did the US. That's enough for me.

 

[alexjack]

Can I put it another way then? Using thomas aagaard 's terms, how would you rate him as a leader of guerilla troops and how good was he at small unit tactics?

 

[hanna260]

@Patrick H has a wealth of information. I remember getting into a very interesting conversation with him about (was it Quantrill? Can't remember) the man, in question, being just as much a product of their situation, as he was, arguably, a murderer. Nevertheless, someone who was more complex than even historical figures mostly are.

Or was that someone else?

Edit: Woops, just saw @diane's post above which said the exact same thing I just said but better. Carry on.

 

[Patrick H]

Can I put it another way then? Using thomas aagaard 's terms, how would you rate him as a leader of guerilla troops and how good was he at small unit tactics?

My short answer to this post is that he was a very good and effective leader of guerrilla troops (up until the winter of 1863-64) and he was mostly fabulous at small unit tactics. I say "mostly" because if you read about the Tate house fight and some other early confrontations, you will see that he had to learn to post good pickets.

I will come back later and respond more fully if I can. The thread is very interesting to me and is sure to generate a lot of conversation and discussion (and I hope not TOO much contention) but I'm cooking at the moment and I just don't have time. I will be back.

Thanks to all of my friends here.

 

[Rebforever]

Actually, Quantrill wasn't a soldier - he was an irregular. It's interesting that the Confederacy had an act regarding these types of troops and they do come in handy. They don't have to have a commander responsible for what each of them does, they don't have to carry arms openly, they don't have to have uniforms or identify themselves...and they can come and go as needed. Because Quantrill was an irregular, Bloody Bill could just take himself and fellow travellers off on their own hook.

ir·reg·u·lar
əˈreɡyələr/
adjective

1. 1.
   not even or balanced in shape or arrangement.
   "her features were too irregular"
   synonyms: asymmetrical, nonuniform, uneven, crooked, misshapen, lopsided,twisted; Mor
2. 2.
   contrary to the rules or to that which is normal or established.
   "they were questioned about their involvement in irregular financial dealings"
   synonyms: against the rules, out of order, improper, illegitimate, unscrupulous,unethical, unprofessional, unacceptable;
   informalshady
   "irregular financial dealings"

noun

1. 1.
   a member of an irregular military force.

But even as a irregular according to the dictionary he was still a soldier.
.

 

[Rebforever]

well, the Geneva conventions would disagree and so did the union and CSA army.

He was not in the CSA army and being a skilled warrior got nothing to do with what is a legal question.,

This is no different then a guy like John L. Burns... he was not a soldier.(in 1863)

Show me then.

 

[leftyhunter]

I am just finishing 'Quantrill and the Border Wars' by William Elsey Connelley which I got as a freebie Kindle download. It was published in 1909 and initially I thought the writer was going to be a bit too biased against Quantrill to be able to make any kind of balanced judgement about the man but as the book went on, Connelley, although merciless in his opinions of Quantrill, his morals and his guerillas depredations against the populations of Kansas and Missouri, seemed to be giving an unbiased slant to his operations in the field against, sometimes superior Federal forces. Now there are a lot of people on here who are far more qualified than me to judge Quantrills ability as the commander of a unit of cavalrymen/ mounted infantry and I would appreciate their comments because to a layman like me, he seemed to be a pretty capable tactician on the battlefield.

No doubt Quantrill was an effective guerrilla . Has Patrick H mentioned Quantrill seemed to lose effectiveness about the same time he fell in love and Bloody Bill Anderson took over.
In one of histories hilarious little ironies Quantrill had his career terminated by a fellow sociopath Edwin Terril who was an irregular guerilla hunter employed by the State of Kentucky.
Two very good reads on Quantrill is T.J Stiles "Jesse James last Rebel of the Civil War" and "The Devil knows how to ride" by Edward Leslie.
Quantrill and Anderson where both effective guerrillas but in the end they and their men where defeated.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

So Rebforever was Newt Knight a soldier?
Leftyhunter

 

[diane]

ir·reg·u·lar
əˈreɡyələr/
adjective

1. 1.
   not even or balanced in shape or arrangement.
   "her features were too irregular"
   synonyms: asymmetrical, nonuniform, uneven, crooked, misshapen, lopsided,twisted; Mor
2. 2.
   contrary to the rules or to that which is normal or established.
   "they were questioned about their involvement in irregular financial dealings"
   synonyms: against the rules, out of order, improper, illegitimate, unscrupulous,unethical, unprofessional, unacceptable;
   informalshady
   "irregular financial dealings"

noun

1. 1.
   a member of an irregular military force.

But even as a irregular according to the dictionary he was still a soldier.
.

But that definition confirms he was not a soldier - an irregular military force is not part of the regular army.

 

[Booner]

Quantrill was a very effective guerrilla leader. But to better understand him and his actions, you have to have an understanding of the conflict in Missouri and Kansas that started with "Bleeding Kansas" and did not end until long after the end of the war. I'm not trying to defend him or his actions, but the war in this area of the country was on a completely different level, than what what happening in the rest of the country.

I'm pressed for time right now so I can't say more, but I will be watching this with much interest.