POW Myth?

[East Tennessee Roots]

Quite a tale of woe. I just have a quick comment about the last victim, Silas, who died 11/14/64. You say he was buried at Andersonville. That's a bit surprising, as I was under the impression, given the threat of Sherman after his capture of Atlanta, that the Rebs promptly started transferring POWs from Andersonville to other prisons all over the SE, so that my Nov the place was virtually shut down, i.e., nobody home?! That's my impression - I'm no expert on it.

Pvt Silas Anderson (unknown-1864) - Find a Grave...

Enlisted on 7/19/1862 at Knoxville, TN as a Private. On 9/22/1862 he was mustered into Co. D, 11th Kentucky Cavalry POW 11/14/1863 Maryville, TN Died of disease while POW. Roll of Honor Information: Date of Death listed as 6/3/1864. Federal Pension Information: Mother (Nancy Anderson) applied...

www.findagrave.com

 

[edfranksphd]

They started removing prisoners from Andersonville in Sept/Oct of 1864, but then the removals stopped. There were still thousands of prisoners remaining within the stockade at this point (I want to say about 3,000 or so, but that's just off the top of my head). More prisoners left the following spring, starting in February. The last identified prisoner who died, Knud Hansen, died at Andersonville at the end of April, 1865 and the last prisoners were removed by the end of the first week of May, 1865, when the stockade was shut down.

That is amazing. I had no idea, clearly. I had clear impression the place was literally empty by the time Sherman march was in the vicinity (ca mid-Nov)?! Thanks for the details. It's hard to believe the prison remained out of the reach of all the late war Yankee raids, though I suppose it boiled down to a matter of priorities. I wonder when that area of the CSA received orders to surrender? Would they have been still technically under the command of Hardee, or some other successor to the command of the Army of TN (post Bragg/Johnston/Hood/etc.)? Now this begs the question, since the remaining 3000 were likely the sickest and thus hardest to move, that over the winter of 64/65 the death rate must have been very high for these already sick men? Lemme know if the spirit moves you. Thx again for the info. : )

 

[bdtex]

I have not seen a lot of people assume that POWs died soon after release and I'm not sure the data would support that belief either.

Nor have I seen that.

 

[Trooper "D"]

Why is it assumed that POWs who survived died shortly after they returned home? I am looking for honest opinions NOT comments about which side treated their prisoners worst. I would also appreciate citations to articles or books that address this issue.

Thanks.

Tuberculosis. My ancestor was surrendered at Cumberland Gap with the 55th GA. Inf. Caught the cough while imprisoned. Released in 1865 and brought it home to his wife who also contracted the disease. Both died from it leaving their 6 year old son an orphan. It took some time but the disease finally got them.

 

[DLCO]

I don't know what are in the lists of counts so I can only add those which I have found, All that survived, lived into their sixties. Would not the way to determine if life expectancies were shortened by being a POW, be to compare those that served and were not POWs, to those that were POWS? And in this case the sample size should be large to deal with natural causes (cancer, accidents, etc). I would assume that those listed below were in your lists of POWs. If not, here they are.

My anecdotal evidence from my family shows that POWs lived longer than the average and does not support any theory that their lives were shortened (all other things being equal which they are not)
I did not compare them to non-military family in the same period. Additionally and most importantly, so far I have found only 5 (4 definites) that were POWs and one died in Andersonville. That certainly is not a good statistical set. I can say that there are many more that served but I have not researched the VA/NC line of my family as much as my PA line. If you were looking for other more formal research, I cannot help. I only have family records.

From family genealogy,

John London - Confederate, 5th Regiment Cavalry, Co E. Enlisted Cleveland Tenn. Born 1839 in Georgia and was listed in 1900 Census in Tennessee. So a minimum of ~60 yrs. See below for Brother Martin - captured at the same time.

Martin Van Buren London - Confederate, 5th Regiment Cavalry, Co E. Enlisted Cleveland Tenn. Brother of John London above. Oath of Allegiance sworn at Nashville Tenn.
Note that family records show "...both were made prisoners at Cleveland..." I cannot determine by the letter if this site was Cleveland Tenn or Cleveland County NC. Cleveland, Tenn is where they both enlisted. His wife filed for a CW pension in 1905 so he had ~ 63 yrs.

Andrew Jackson London - Confederate, 56 Regiment Infantry, Company F (State Troops). Enlisted at Cleveland, NC. Born 1827, Died 1898 so ~61 yrs. Oath of Allegiance sworn at Point Lookout, Maryland.

I have another whose name I cannot pin down but was said in a letter to be a prisoner at Rock island, Ill. Possibly William M London or possibly James or Jeremiah (unclear family story) born 1830 in Kentucky but was in Missouri in 1854 and related to NC family. No death date.

I am aware of the coincidence of Cleveland, Tenn and Cleveland County, Georgia but my searches at least with the NPS support the locations for those listed above. Additionally, and slightly humorously, their families use of past Presidents names.

I will also point out that Joseph Lewis London (Pvt Ill 65th Company F Infrantry - Scotch Regiment - Union), died at Andersonville at age 19 and John Henry Anson, Pvt 1st Missouri Volunteers Infantry Company D - Union, died of typhoid while in service but not a POW. I bring this up as these two would be averaged into life expectancy of the general public but were directly related to the war since there is a comparison of differences in life expectancy. Related rates. Causation and correlation will be difficult.

 

[debwallsmith]

I don't know what are in the lists of counts so I can only add those which I have found, All that survived, lived into their sixties. Would not the way to determine if life expectancies were shortened by being a POW, be to compare those that served and were not POWs, to those that were POWS? And in this case the sample size should be large to deal with natural causes (cancer, accidents, etc). I would assume that those listed below were in your lists of POWs. If not, here they are.

My anecdotal evidence from my family shows that POWs lived longer than the average and does not support any theory that their lives were shortened (all other things being equal which they are not)
I did not compare them to non-military family in the same period. Additionally and most importantly, so far I have found only 5 (4 definites) that were POWs and one died in Andersonville. That certainly is not a good statistical set. I can say that there are many more that served but I have not researched the VA/NC line of my family as much as my PA line. If you were looking for other more formal research, I cannot help. I only have family records.

From family genealogy,

John London - Confederate, 5th Regiment Cavalry, Co E. Enlisted Cleveland Tenn. Born 1839 in Georgia and was listed in 1900 Census in Tennessee. So a minimum of ~60 yrs. See below for Brother Martin - captured at the same time.

Martin Van Buren London - Confederate, 5th Regiment Cavalry, Co E. Enlisted Cleveland Tenn. Brother of John London above. Oath of Allegiance sworn at Nashville Tenn.
Note that family records show "...both were made prisoners at Cleveland..." I cannot determine by the letter if this site was Cleveland Tenn or Cleveland County NC. Cleveland, Tenn is where they both enlisted. His wife filed for a CW pension in 1905 so he had ~ 63 yrs.

Andrew Jackson London - Confederate, 56 Regiment Infantry, Company F (State Troops). Enlisted at Cleveland, NC. Born 1827, Died 1898 so ~61 yrs. Oath of Allegiance sworn at Point Lookout, Maryland.

I have another whose name I cannot pin down but was said in a letter to be a prisoner at Rock island, Ill. Possibly William M London or possibly James or Jeremiah (unclear family story) born 1830 in Kentucky but was in Missouri in 1854 and related to NC family. No death date.

I am aware of the coincidence of Cleveland, Tenn and Cleveland County, Georgia but my searches at least with the NPS support the locations for those listed above. Additionally, and slightly humorously, their families use of past Presidents names.

I will also point out that Joseph Lewis London (Pvt Ill 65th Company F Infrantry - Scotch Regiment - Union), died at Andersonville at age 19 and John Henry Anson, Pvt 1st Missouri Volunteers Infantry Company D - Union, died of typhoid while in service but not a POW. I bring this up as these two would be averaged into life expectancy of the general public but were directly related to the war since there is a comparison of differences in life expectancy. Related rates. Causation and correlation will be difficult.

The statistically accurate way to analyze this question would be to compare POW populations with non-imprisoned soldiers (there are no sailors in my dataset) and those who did not fight vs life expectancy for the male population as a whole. The graph I posted shows a normal distribution of ages at death. However, it was just a "fast and dirty" analysis done several years ago. The dataset has increased in size so when I finally get a chance to sit down and do the analysis, there might be a different outcome.

 

[DLCO]

The statistically accurate way to analyze this question would be to compare POW populations with non-imprisoned soldiers (there are no sailors in my dataset) and those who did not fight vs life expectancy for the male population as a whole. The graph I posted shows a normal distribution of ages at death. However, it was just a "fast and dirty" analysis done several years ago. The dataset has increased in size so when I finally get a chance to sit down and do the analysis, there might be a different outcome.

Good luck. This could be a time consuming process.

 

[edfranksphd]

The statistically accurate way to analyze this question would be to compare POW populations with non-imprisoned soldiers (there are no sailors in my dataset) and those who did not fight vs life expectancy for the male population as a whole. The graph I posted shows a normal distribution of ages at death. However, it was just a "fast and dirty" analysis done several years ago. The dataset has increased in size so when I finally get a chance to sit down and do the analysis, there might be a different outcome.

POWs that survived the experience, esp longer term incarcerations that were typical later in the war, were likely healthier and maybe hardier (tougher) than their fellow inmates who died in prison and thus would likely be a subset of able bodied men of that era that were inclined to live longer lives anyway, whether they experienced incarceration or not?

 

[Gary Morgan]

POWs that survived the experience, esp longer term incarcerations that were typical later in the war, were likely healthier and maybe hardier (tougher) than their fellow inmates who died in prison and thus would likely be a subset of able bodied men of that era that were inclined to live longer lives anyway, whether they experienced incarceration or not?

That's one theory, Although many long-term incarcerations were not as long-term as you might think. The number of POWs on both sides began to balloon after July, 1863 when the North suspended prisoner exchanges, and vast number of prisoners were sent back home starting in September, 1864 when the exchanges resumed. Survival of the fittest is one theory. There is also a theory going around that intermittent fasting adds to one's longevity, and "involuntary fasting" was part and parcel of the POW experience.

 

[Cannondragger]

My wife had two Grandfathers in the 24th Mississippi Infantry, Co. E. A Father and Son. They were captured at Missionary Ridge, TN., and sent to Rock Island, Ill. The elder, Nathanial H. Cobb died at Rock Island and is buried there. The younger Martian S. Cobb made it home and lived to old age. When I met my wife, her Great Grandmother was alive and she remembered Martian, her Grandfather. Martian was born in 1844, and lived until 1929.

 

[Cannondragger]

As often happens, I find (possibly) interesting things while specifically looking for something entirely different. In this case, it is a fairly recent study out of UCLA that shows that the lifespans of the sons of Civil War POWs were shortened compared to those of the sons of soldiers who were not POWs. And yes, the writing style is what you would expect from a research study/clinical trial (and so is the math).

Intergenerational Transmission of Paternal Trauma Among US Civil War Ex-POWs

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1803630115

This is UCLA Health's translation for the rest of us (especially the math challenged):

Civil War data reveals that fathers' trauma can be passed on to sons

Although the study analyzed information dating back to the mid-19th century, the findings could have important implications for human health today.

www.uclahealth.org

This seems to defy logic...

 

[debwallsmith]

That's one theory, Although many long-term incarcerations were not as long-term as you might think. The number of POWs on both sides began to balloon after July, 1863 when the North suspended prisoner exchanges, and vast number of prisoners were sent back home starting in September, 1864 when the exchanges resumed. Survival of the fittest is one theory. There is also a theory going around that intermittent fasting adds to one's longevity, and "involuntary fasting" was part and parcel of the POW experience.

The longest any of the Millen POWs were kept was about 17 months. There are many more factors to take into account in addition to starvation. One of those factors would be to compare the group of men who were sent from Andersonville to Millen to Savannah to Blackshear to Thomasville to Andersonville with POWs who spent their entire time at Andersonville. Was there a physical toll taken from being relocated so many times? And there is no way of statistically assessing the mental toll imprisonment had on ANY POW. IMHO survival of the fittest is a one size fits all explanation and therefore, not an explanation at all. I would also suggest that there's a huge difference between intermittent fasting and "involuntary fasting" that leads to malnutrition and related physical disorders.

 

[edfranksphd]

That's one theory, Although many long-term incarcerations were not as long-term as you might think. The number of POWs on both sides began to balloon after July, 1863 when the North suspended prisoner exchanges, and vast number of prisoners were sent back home starting in September, 1864 when the exchanges resumed. Survival of the fittest is one theory. There is also a theory going around that intermittent fasting adds to one's longevity, and "involuntary fasting" was part and parcel of the POW experience.

Fasting, eh? Well, that's a new angle for me. Never heard that before. So, then, maybe the ones who were most robust were SDAs?! : ) And, by long-term incarceration I don't mean to imply years but rather anything from 6 months to 2 years. 2 of my ancestors were both captured the same week in Sep 64 and released in June 65. I suppose the exchanges did resume ca sep 64, but I seriously doubt that it is correct to say that a "vast number of prisoners were sent back home." I suspect that as of the end of hostilities, there were still 250,000 rebs in prisons all over the north, including mine. No hint of any sudden increase in the rate of exchanges among the POWs in Camp Chase or Pt Lookout, at least not for my ancestors, who were both non-comm in infantry.

 

[debwallsmith]

Fasting, eh? Well, that's a new angle for me. Never heard that before. So, then, maybe the ones who were most robust were SDAs?! : ) And, by long-term incarceration I don't mean to imply years but rather anything from 6 months to 2 years. 2 of my ancestors were both captured the same week in Sep 64 and released in June 65. I suppose the exchanges did resume ca sep 64, but I seriously doubt that it is correct to say that a "vast number of prisoners were sent back home." I suspect that as of the end of hostilities, there were still 250,000 rebs in prisons all over the north, including mine. No hint of any sudden increase in the rate of exchanges among the POWs in Camp Chase or Pt Lookout, at least not for my ancestors, who were both non-comm in infantry.

Were your ancestors the same age? How old were they when they died?

 

[Gary Morgan]

Fasting, eh? Well, that's a new angle for me. Never heard that before.

 

[edfranksphd]

Were your ancestors the same age? How old were they when they died?

Mine were 35, 30 and 26 when signed up for the 5th VA Inf in April 1861. The oldest died in 1868 in the fields of an apparent heart attack (was sick for most of his 1 yr of service thru Mar 1862, then discharged). Probably got pericarditis or something while in the army); Next one died in 1888 at age 57, quite a bit younger than the avg life exp in them parts in the earlier 19th ce; dunno what from but tombstone implies death related to one of many wounds suffered during the war, or perhaps his 9 mths at Pt Lookout at the end of the war, one of the worst prison in the North; The youngest died in 1904 at 69 but cause of death unknown, or simply "old age." He spent last 9 mths at Camp Chase and was seriously wounded in neck at 1st Bull Run, the arm at Antietam and also shot at Wilderness. The last wound kept him out of the mule shoe at Spotsylvania CH the next week, during which the entirety of his brigade was captured or killed.

 

[edfranksphd]

Not sure I understand the point here, but it surely has nothing to do with the Civil War. Thx for the tip, though.

 

[gcoombs]

My Great Grandfather was captured at Dandridge TN and went as a POW to Castle Thunder to Belle Isle to Andersonville to Savannah and then to Millen, before being exchanged in Nov 1864 from Savannah, I think in an "invalid prisoner" exchange.
After arrival at Andersonville he suffered from typhoid pneumonia and was nursed back to health by a friend from his cavalry troop, George Wall. Because he had some knowledge of pharmaceuticals from apprenticing with chemist/pharmacists in Philadelphia, he was assigned to work in the gangrene ward at Andersonville. Soon after he moved out from the general population to work on that ward, George Wall was carried out dead.

"After the cold of Belle Island and the confinement of the life there, the sun at Andersonville brought on my own misfortune. As we stood up in line one morning to be divided into squads I fell over on my face in a faint, and then and there laid down with the commencement of typhoid pneumonia. It seemed like a billet for the other world under the existing conditions – no hospital, no shelter, no food, no medicine, on the ground, inclement March and April ahead. Could conditions be more adverse?...

...I can recall no special suffering or distress from my own illness, except the misery of it all and the knowledge that I saw my comrade thought I was to be the first to respond to the hereafter call. I was spared. After three months I commenced to mend and get about. Having some knowledge of medicine, I had charge, with another prisoner, of some of the gangrene patients – not a very healthful occupation under the circumstances. George Wall had me transferred and he remained inside. I had not been out long – about July 1st​ – when poor George was carried out a corpse, having died away from me. It saddened my life, as we had been close "bunkies" ever since our capture in December – slept together, shared our small rations, comforted and cheered each other as best we could. He nursed me from March 10th​, for three months, like a mother, cooking what little I required and nestling close to me in the long, cold nights, to keep me warm."

After he was exchanged, he was at Camp Comfort in Parole (Annapolis), MD but soon after arrival was given leave to return home to Philadelphia for about a month. He then returned to Annapolis until mustered out, I believe. On his return to Philadelphia, he may have continued to work for the pharmacists Bullock & Crenshaw as a clerk, then attended law school in 1867, passing the bar in 1869, and continued at Bullock & Crenshaw as an accountant and lawyer at least until 1881. When the pharmacists Smith & Kline were incorporated in 1888, he was listed as the Secretary of the Board. He continued in that role when, after an acquisition, it became Smith, Kline & French in 1891 (we now know it as the company Glaxo Smith Kline or GSK). He died in 1904. Based on letters with his wife and children, as well as newspaper articles, it appears he had medical issues throughout his life and often traveled to places that were supposed to be good for his health, both in the US and Europe. He died at home after a regular day of work and his Certificate of Death listed cause as myocarditis with a contributing factor of acute gastritis. He was 62. His wife, 6 years younger, lived till 1923, dying at the age of 74.

 

[JerryD]

I realize that life was tough even before the war but I'm looking for specifics on why it is assumed that being a POW shortened their lifespan.

I have never heard of this assumption. Can you share where you are getting it from?

 

[debwallsmith]

My Great Grandfather was captured at Dandridge TN and went as a POW to Castle Thunder to Belle Isle to Andersonville to Savannah and then to Millen, before being exchanged in Nov 1864 from Savannah, I think in an "invalid prisoner" exchange.
After arrival at Andersonville he suffered from typhoid pneumonia and was nursed back to health by a friend from his cavalry troop, George Wall. Because he had some knowledge of pharmaceuticals from apprenticing with chemist/pharmacists in Philadelphia, he was assigned to work in the gangrene ward at Andersonville. Soon after he moved out from the general population to work on that ward, George Wall was carried out dead.

"After the cold of Belle Island and the confinement of the life there, the sun at Andersonville brought on my own misfortune. As we stood up in line one morning to be divided into squads I fell over on my face in a faint, and then and there laid down with the commencement of typhoid pneumonia. It seemed like a billet for the other world under the existing conditions – no hospital, no shelter, no food, no medicine, on the ground, inclement March and April ahead. Could conditions be more adverse?...

...I can recall no special suffering or distress from my own illness, except the misery of it all and the knowledge that I saw my comrade thought I was to be the first to respond to the hereafter call. I was spared. After three months I commenced to mend and get about. Having some knowledge of medicine, I had charge, with another prisoner, of some of the gangrene patients – not a very healthful occupation under the circumstances. George Wall had me transferred and he remained inside. I had not been out long – about July 1st​ – when poor George was carried out a corpse, having died away from me. It saddened my life, as we had been close "bunkies" ever since our capture in December – slept together, shared our small rations, comforted and cheered each other as best we could. He nursed me from March 10th​, for three months, like a mother, cooking what little I required and nestling close to me in the long, cold nights, to keep me warm."

After he was exchanged, he was at Camp Comfort in Parole (Annapolis), MD but soon after arrival was given leave to return home to Philadelphia for about a month. He then returned to Annapolis until mustered out, I believe. On his return to Philadelphia, he may have continued to work for the pharmacists Bullock & Crenshaw as a clerk, then attended law school in 1867, passing the bar in 1869, and continued at Bullock & Crenshaw as an accountant and lawyer at least until 1881. When the pharmacists Smith & Kline were incorporated in 1888, he was listed as the Secretary of the Board. He continued in that role when, after an acquisition, it became Smith, Kline & French in 1891 (we now know it as the company Glaxo Smith Kline or GSK). He died in 1904. Based on letters with his wife and children, as well as newspaper articles, it appears he had medical issues throughout his life and often traveled to places that were supposed to be good for his health, both in the US and Europe. He died at home after a regular day of work and his Certificate of Death listed cause as myocarditis with a contributing factor of acute gastritis. He was 62. His wife, 6 years younger, lived till 1923, dying at the age of 74.

What is the name of your great grandfather? I would like to add him to the Millen database if I don't already have his name.