POW Myth?

[debwallsmith]

There is an interesting thread about the life spans of former POWs here you might want to look at -

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/ho....nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3496009/[/QUOTE]

Once again, the writing style and math are what one would expect from a research study/clinical trial.

That is the follow up to an article by Costa et al that I was asked to review. But thanks for providing the link. I didn't know Costa had written a follow up.

 

[CavRTO]

I realize that life was tough even before the war but I'm looking for specifics on why it is assumed that being a POW shortened their lifespan.

If you re-read my response you'll see I'm saying it's progressive occurrences to the body and mind of the soldier.

 

[GwilymT]

There is an interesting thread about the life spans of former POWs here you might want to look at -

How Old Did Your POW Ancestor Live to Be? | Prisons & Prisoners

I was "chatting" with a lady who's an expert on the prison camp in Millen, Georgia and she's noticed that if a prisoner survived the first year or so after being released, the pattern seems to be that he then lived longer than average. I heard a talk at the Salisbury Civil War Symposium several...

civilwartalk.com

This would seem to imply the exact opposite of the "assumption" referred to in the the OP, no?

 

[lupaglupa]

This would seem to imply the exact opposite of the "assumption" referred to in the the OP, no?

Well, except it looks at those who survived the first year. So yes and no.

 

[damYankee]

I have not been aware of wide spread assumptions about POWs dying upon returning home. Can to author of the OP provide evidence that this is an issue?

 

[Tom Elmore]

I had heard of starving prisoners dying in other wars when too much food was introduced to them at one time. This explains the reason why:

"Refeeding syndrome can develop when someone who is malnourished begins to eat again. The syndrome occurs because of the reintroduction of glucose, or sugar. As the body digests and metabolizes food again, this can cause sudden shifts in the balance of electrolytes and fluids. These shifts can cause severe complications, and the syndrome can be fatal."

 

[debwallsmith]

This would seem to imply the exact opposite of the "assumption" referred to in the the OP, no?

The person being referred to in that post is the OP - me!

 

[debwallsmith]

I had heard of starving prisoners dying in other wars when too much food was introduced to them at one time. This explains the reason why:

"Refeeding syndrome can develop when someone who is malnourished begins to eat again. The syndrome occurs because of the reintroduction of glucose, or sugar. As the body digests and metabolizes food again, this can cause sudden shifts in the balance of electrolytes and fluids. These shifts can cause severe complications, and the syndrome can be fatal."

I have come across this in a number of documents. I believe there are several references in the Andersonville archives.

 

[GwilymT]

The person being referred to in that post is the OP - me!

Awesome! So, it seems that if POWs survived the first year home after their ordeal they lived longer than other veterans?

 

[Gary Morgan]

Awesome! So, it seems that if POWs survived the first year home after their ordeal they lived longer than other veterans?

Not sure about living longer than other veterans, but if you survived the first couple years after being released, you were more likely to exceed the average life span at the time, frequently by quite a bit. I'd heard someone say this at a symposium once, and I was pretty skeptical, so I did my own 0survey on a couple of different boards, and the results are remarkably consistent. The majority of them seemed to live to be from thier 70s on up, with a surprising number living into their 90s.

 

[Library Lady]

That's interesting- thanks for sharing.

So the effects of trauma incurred by the father can be genetically forwarded to the offspring? And these same potential effects can be countered by the mother's nutritional intake in utero?

Just not so sure…..

Yes, @Sheltowee , that's what I got from UCLA Health's explanation of the study.

 

[Gary Morgan]

That's interesting- thanks for sharing.

So the effects of trauma incurred by the father can be genetically forwarded to the offspring? And these same potential effects can be countered by the mother's nutritional intake in utero?

Just not so sure…..

As we used to say when I taught AP Biology, acquired traits are not inherited. In other words, if you amputate the tails off of mice parents, their offspring will still be born with tails. But this doesn't take into account socio-economic factors. Pretty much any man who spent an extended time at a POW camp came away with health issues that would potentially limit his employment possibilities. If I am reading a POW pension app and it doesn't say that the man suffered from rhumatism and - how shall I put this? - gasro-intestinal issues (some of which were bacteria born, and thus potentially transmittable), then I start to look for signs of pension fraud. Not being able to get hired or hold a decent job would impact where you lived, what kind of medical care you could afford, the nutritional value of the food you could afford - all factors that might put the offspring at increased risk of illness, malnutrition, and early death. Toss in the fact that the kids of incapacitated fathers were also more likely to be taken out of school and put to work in places like mills and mines at an early age, and you may well end up with offspring who have major health impairments.

(And if anyone is keeping score; I'm licensed to teach 6 different subjects and have taught a seventh (Special Ed) with a waiver from the state. It would be seven licenses, but I've never taken calculus and so I never tried the Math certification test, although I can hold my own teaching up to Algebra 2)

 

[debwallsmith]

Awesome! So, it seems that if POWs survived the first year home after their ordeal they lived longer than other veterans?

At this time there is no proof that POWs who survived their first year home lived longer than other veterans. However, what I can say is, and please understand I haven't performed any statistical analysis, that there were many who lived into their 60s and beyond. In a rough count I made a couple of years ago, there were 48 out at total of 861 who lived into their 90s. Since then I have collected a lot more birth and death dates so I will be revisiting the data soon. One of the factors that needs to be examined is life expectancies over the years. Here is the rough data from the quick analysis I did in 2020. Each of the bars represents a 10 year span beginning with 20 - 29 years and ending with 90+ years.

 

[Gary Morgan]

At this time there is no proof that POWs who survived their first year home lived longer than other veterans. However, what I can say is, and please understand I haven't performed any statistical analysis, that there were many who lived into their 60s and beyond. In a rough count I made a couple of years ago, there were 48 out at total of 861 who lived into their 90s. Since then I have collected a lot more birth and death dates so I will be revisiting the data soon. One of the factors that needs to be examined is life expectancies over the years. Here is the rough data from the quick analysis I did in 2020. Each of the bars represents a 10 year span beginning with 20 - 29 years and ending with 90+ years.

View attachment 447854

Is this a Millen count, Northern Count, Southern count, or other?

 

[debwallsmith]

Is this a Millen count, Northern Count, Southern count, or other?

Millen POWs. Since that time I have another 400 men for whom I have both birth and death dates to add to the list and I still have about 1200 more names to check.

 

[RoBert "Bert" Hile]

Many lived after release from POW camps. Remember those who would take the oath to the US were given rides home, but many refused and had to walk from "Hellmiria" and Camp Chase (Chicago) back home. And they were not given aid and comfort much by the north on the trip. Then they had to "Kick the Dog" or were very badly treated in their hometown by reconstruction governments which required them to take the oath(in some cases every time they went to town) or they were driven from town without the food they came to buy. Yet the South has been one of the most loyal to the cause of Freedom that this country has seen. Sgt. York, and Auddy Murphy, both the most decorated soldier of WWI and WWII respectfully, are both Southerners. Admiral Nimetz (sic) came from Texas as Murphy, and Eisenhower was also born in Texas but he did live most of his life in Kansas. Many of the Blacks who are now being honored came from the South and overcame a racist South but a racist North that on one occasion sang "Bye, Bye Black Bird" as their ship pulled away to sail to Europe in New York City.

 

[Indiana Native]

There were a number of deaths in veteran care homes. Perhaps that makes it seem a high percentage of POWs died shortly thereafter.

 

[edfranksphd]

My paternal 2 x gr grandfather from Wilkes County, NC was a 40-year-old father of seven, He was conscripted in Feb.1864. After about a month of training, he was sent to the front in Virginia. He managed to survive the Overland Campaign and Seige of Petersburg. He was captured on April 2, 1865, when the Confederate lines were broken. He was confined in the last Civil War prison camp at Hart Island, NY. until mid-June 1865. He was furnished rail transportation to probably Wilkesboro where he walked to his home in the Brushy Mountains. He died sometime in the early 1900s. Applied for a pension on June 13, 1901. He must have been a tuff old ridge runner.

In East Tennessee, a 4 x gr grandfather died at Camp Morton, Indiana. He entered Confederate service as a 56-year-old replacement into Company E 60th TN. He was captured on May 17, 1863, at Big Black River. Died on the following July 2nd. Two 2 x gr, granduncles Lieutenant Richard and Private John Coppas along with a 3 x gr granduncle, Private Harvey Gray of Company E 60th TN. Richard died in August 1863 at Johnson's Island. Harvey died in July, John in Oct.1863 at Fort Delaware.

My paternal grandmother's paternal grandfather was a Union Cavalryman in Co.G 8th TN Cavalry. He was captured on Oct.19, 1863, at Zollicoffer, TN. confined at Danville, VA. His widow was told he was shot attempting escape on or about April 15, 1864.

My wife's 4 x 1st cousin, Union Private Silas Anderson Co.D 11th KY Cavalry was captured at Huff's Ferry, TN 11 / 14 / 1864. He died and is buried at Andersonville.

Quite a tale of woe. I just have a quick comment about the last victim, Silas, who died 11/14/64. You say he was buried at Andersonville. That's a bit surprising, as I was under the impression, given the threat of Sherman after his capture of Atlanta, that the Rebs promptly started transferring POWs from Andersonville to other prisons all over the SE, so that my Nov the place was virtually shut down, i.e., nobody home?! That's my impression - I'm no expert on it.

 

[Gary Morgan]

Quite a tale of woe. I just have a quick comment about the last victim, Silas, who died 11/14/64. You say he was buried at Andersonville. That's a bit surprising, as I was under the impression, given the threat of Sherman after his capture of Atlanta, that the Rebs promptly started transferring POWs from Andersonville to other prisons all over the SE, so that my Nov the place was virtually shut down, i.e., nobody home?! That's my impression - I'm no expert on it.

They started removing prisoners from Andersonville in Sept/Oct of 1864, but then the removals stopped. There were still thousands of prisoners remaining within the stockade at this point (I want to say about 3,000 or so, but that's just off the top of my head). More prisoners left the following spring, starting in February. The last identified prisoner who died, Knud Hansen, died at Andersonville at the end of April, 1865 and the last prisoners were removed by the end of the first week of May, 1865, when the stockade was shut down.

 

[GwilymT]

Many lived after release from POW camps. Remember those who would take the oath to the US were given rides home, but many refused and had to walk from "Hellmiria" and Camp Chase (Chicago) back home. And they were not given aid and comfort much by the north on the trip. Then they had to "Kick the Dog" or were very badly treated in their hometown by reconstruction governments which required them to take the oath(in some cases every time they went to town) or they were driven from town without the food they came to buy. Yet the South has been one of the most loyal to the cause of Freedom that this country has seen. Sgt. York, and Auddy Murphy, both the most decorated soldier of WWI and WWII respectfully, are both Southerners. Admiral Nimetz (sic) came from Texas as Murphy, and Eisenhower was also born in Texas but he did live most of his life in Kansas. Many of the Blacks who are now being honored came from the South and overcame a racist South but a racist North that on one occasion sang "Bye, Bye Black Bird" as their ship pulled away to sail to Europe in New York City.

I do love and appreciate the romantic views you espouse but the real story is quite different.