Please help identify two pieces History

[coloradoJen]

Hello from Colorado, first I would like to thank the founder and contributors of this site. My sons and I are History buffs and truly enjoy all the photos and writings that I think will be enjoyed for generations to come. As a single mom sites like this one have helped me teach my sons at least a glimpse of the history of our country.
But I am reaching out today for help in resolving two mysteries that my sons and I have been trying to figure out.
We have a very very old sword and a signal cannon. My son is wanting to sell them to help with college money. And we cannot pin down exactly when or where the sword or cannon are from. I am attaching pictures and would be so thankful for any information. The eagle head sword has embossing or engraving down the blade. And the flag on the shell I was told makes it very rare.
The signal cannon has a mark or seal I was told was Spanish. But from what I've found I do not believe that's the case.
Again thank you for all the wonderful photos and stories. We enjoy them very much, J

 

[chellers]

Welcome to CivilWarTalk.

You mention attaching some photos but I'm not seeing anything. Please check on this so our experts can take a look.

Thanks.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Welcome from South Mississippi.

 

[13th Missouri Cavalry]

Where did you get them from?

 

[Patrick H]

Welcome from Missouri. I don't see your pictures, either. Please try again.

 

[E_just_E]

Welcome from PA!

One thing that would be useful, in addition to pictures of course , is to let us know of any marks, like letters and numbers on those items.

 

[Old Hickory]

Please put a ruler or something for scale next to the cannon.

 

[Specster]

still not seeing the pics

 

[coloradoJen]

I am so sorry for the delay. I have been trying to figure out how to attach the photos. I thought I had in the first post. And I am so thankful for the kind responses. I am trying to post the pics again,

 

[MRB1863]

Hello and welcome from 35 miles north of Gettysburg!

 

[donna]

Welcome to forum from Kentucky.

 

[ole]

Hang on for a bit. Someone here will know.

 

[Glen_C]

Welcome aboard

The eagle pommel sword is a copy of an earlier French style and your sword is likely from the 1830s, The sword was taken apart at some stage in its life and the grip replaced with something else. While these eagle pommels are less common than a lot of swords in general, they don't exactly get classified as rare. Condition is everything with these swords and your example incomplete and otherwise a bit tired. The blade once had a blue and gilt look, with the scabbard either lether or thin brass plated either with silver or gold. The metal parts of the hilt likewise, would typically have either thin gold or silver wash/plate.

The cannon appears to me to be a purely decorative item, never meant to be fired. An older conversation piece but I would think no older than the last half of the 1900s.

Value for both can be a bit tough to guage but the sword will appeal mostly to a beginner collector or someone that needs parts. I would be surprised to see it reach more than $300 at an auction site such as Ebay,

Some similar examples below with a blade example to show the blue&gilt. See the Eagle pommel discussion a few threads down. These later German made examples were copying a French maker family named Berger. The general style actually quite common amongst the eagle pommel swords.

Cheers

GC

 

[Frederick14Va]

The cannon is a decorative table top item that was common in the 1950-60's era. It replicates a Spanish field artillery gun. Decorative only not intended to be fired... Occasionally still see them from time to time at flea markets and vintage collectable stores for around $20 or less...

 

[Gettysburg Echos]

Hello from Colorado, first I would like to thank the founder and contributors of this site. My sons and I are History buffs and truly enjoy all the photos and writings that I think will be enjoyed for generations to come. As a single mom sites like this one have helped me teach my sons at least a glimpse of the history of our country.
But I am reaching out today for help in resolving two mysteries that my sons and I have been trying to figure out.
We have a very very old sword and a signal cannon. My son is wanting to sell them to help with college money. And we cannot pin down exactly when or where the sword or cannon are from. I am attaching pictures and would be so thankful for any information. The eagle head sword has embossing or engraving down the blade. And the flag on the shell I was told makes it very rare.
The signal cannon has a mark or seal I was told was Spanish. But from what I've found I do not believe that's the case.
Again thank you for all the wonderful photos and stories. We enjoy them very much, J

That looks to be a signal cannon also referred to as, salute cannons which were used aboard ship and on land to make salutes, to warn of danger, and to attract attention in the case of emergency. They were also used to start yacht races.

These cannons were generally cast in the style of the period to which they belong. Personal cannons also fall into this category, these were popular in the 16th century and normally mounted on board. They were also considered a form of currency. They were not solely used as weapons but were admired for there beauty and are highly collectible and do offer appreciation over time. I would hold on to that piece and do some research. I hope this helps. This is a piece I think resembling yours.

 

[coloradoJen]

Welcome aboard

The eagle pommel sword is a copy of an earlier French style and your sword is likely from the 1830s, The sword was taken apart at some stage in its life and the grip replaced with something else. While these eagle pommels are less common than a lot of swords in general, they don't exactly get classified as rare. Condition is everything with these swords and your example incomplete and otherwise a bit tired. The blade once had a blue and gilt look, with the scabbard either lether or thin brass plated either with silver or gold. The metal parts of the hilt likewise, would typically have either thin gold or silver wash/plate.

The cannon appears to me to be a purely decorative item, never meant to be fired. An older conversation piece but I would think no older than the last half of the 1900s.

Value for both can be a bit tough to guage but the sword will appeal mostly to a beginner collector or someone that needs parts. I would be surprised to see it reach more than $300 at an auction site such as Ebay,

Some similar examples below with a blade example to show the blue&gilt. See the Eagle pommel discussion a few threads down. These later German made examples were copying a French maker family named Berger. The general style actually quite common amongst the eagle pommel swords.

Cheers

GC

View attachment 77069 View attachment 77070 View attachment 77071 View attachment 77072 View attachment 77073

Thank you so much for taking the time to give such a kind a informative response. Do you by chance know what the numbers at the top of the blade would be? And the pictures of the more elaborate engraving did not make it in to my post. But I am curious about what they mean , maybe a site or page that has examples of blade engravings?
And I was told that the sword is a Widmann sword. Does that sound right to you?
The cannon was given to me by a Dr in his 80's and he said it was his grandfathers and he remembered playing with it as a child. Which would put it older than 1950's. This person is very credible so I am puzzled by that. He gave it to me in a box wrapped in very old newspapers where you could tell that's where it had been for at least 60 years. And that was 20 years ago. So is it possible it is older than you think. You sound so knowledgable and I mean no disrespect. And am very thankful for your time.

 

[coloradoJen]

The cannon is a decorative table top item that was common in the 1950-60's era. It replicates a Spanish field artillery gun. Decorative only not intended to be fired... Occasionally still see them from time to time at flea markets and vintage collectable stores for around $20 or less...

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am puzzled about the cannon. Because I know for fact it is older than 50's-60's for several reasons. Also also a friend of the family a Colonel in our army says that it has been fired. So I will continue my quest. But I would love to see any photos of the cannons you mentioned. That would be a great help. Thank you again.

 

[coloradoJen]

That looks to be a signal cannon also referred to as, salute cannons which were used aboard ship and on land to make salutes, to warn of danger, and to attract attention in the case of emergency. They were also used to start yacht races.

These cannons were generally cast in the style of the period to which they belong. Personal cannons also fall into this category, these were popular in the 16th century and normally mounted on board. They were also considered a form of currency. They were not solely used as weapons but were admired for there beauty and are highly collectible and do offer appreciation over time. I would hold on to that piece and do some research. I hope this helps. This is a piece I think resembling yours.

View attachment 77074[/QUOTE.

Thank you so much. That is so helpful. A antique cannon dealer in Denver told me it was a Spanish signal cannon from about 1630. He did say what could throw someone is its condition. Because it was my understanding it was packed away for a very long time. It is surprisingly very heavy. And there is so much work and detail that went into it I definitely cannot see it being a child's toy as one person suggested. The cannon has a patina on all parts of it that just could not be made in 50' years.
What I would really love to know is the symbol or crest on the cannon where is that from?
But I am so thank full for the warm responses . It is a nice feeling knowing that there are still people out there that are willing to help someone. So thank you for your time,J

 

[Frederick14Va]

Small cannons of this size have been made for many years... The type you have was a popular curio display item during the 1950-60's era, but yours may also predate that time period...

They came in a variety of different styles and intended uses.... There were some that could be fired... black powder.. carbide... and fire crackers... back yard noise makers... not really "signal guns"... per-se... Others solely made for decorative purposes... abet some folks may try to fire them... I had a couple of them when a kid and would certainly do so.... even if they weren't suppose to be used for such... A splatter of black powder and use a fire cracker fuse... boom... Had one that the breach blew out... so I didn't try that again...lol..

Real signal guns tend to habitually be made of a much higher quality refined standard.. precision made... even though some folks will label any and all small cannons the same which in earnest they aren't.... signal guns typically found mounted on a fancy detailed naval type of gun carriage or mounted on a yoke...

Others similar to yours...

Signal guns made as such....

 

[Glen_C]

Hi Jen, the cannon is certainly not my field of knowledge. I would defer to others more familiar. I do see a touch hole on the barrel, so who knows?

I do know the eagle pommel swords pretty well. The sword is certainly not a Widmann and as I described a fairly common German made copy of an earlier French style. Honestly, it is information that is out there in some searching.

The etchings on the blade usually quite generic with some foliage and stands of arms (panoplies). Some meant specifically for the American market will have an eagle or shield with strs and bars and a banner with E Pluribus Unum. A great many will have no US icons such as mentioned and these straight blades with a fuller terminating about a third from the point used on more than just these "generic" eagle pommel swords.

I can't emphasize enough that it is not a Widmann sword. In the 1840s and 1850s, German makers then did start to mimic some of the Widmann stylings, with Horstmann of Philadelphia absorbing Widmann's shop and workers after Widmann's death. Horstmann did start importing entire swords from Germany and both Widmann and Horstmann had a lot of ties with German manufacturing. the majority of bare blades for Widmann and Horstman were supplied by Weyersburg of Solingen.

Your sword is earlier style than the German swords mimicking Widmann and as I mentioned, your bird is a copy of the earlier Berger birds, which back goes to the first decade of the 1800s. The 1830s seems right to me for your sword. A decade earlier for any marked SHF on the side of the blade and the basic style lasting into the 1840s (when the Widmann styings became more popular). I welcome other's opinion on this but a Widmann, your sword is not. The opinion it is, often offered but incorrect. Most Widmanns are easy to spot and even distinguish between the Widmann and later Hortsmann types using the same leftover pommels and parts.

Blade decoration is often just that, decoration. Look closely under the guard pieces that cover the blade. There may be a name or figure under there. Linked in the other thread on eagle pommel swords are my eagle files (a large body of work in progress). More pictures than you will find in the books.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9AOFMA8y3ODRHZJOXJ4dG5tYWs&usp=sharing

Aside from those files I have half a dozen or so book titles I refer to. There are many pictures of blade types and decorations. Books can add up to more than your sword is worth and still not find all the information between all of them.

I can't really see the numbers you mention but they seem later and maybe someone's collection number. A closeup of what you are mentioning may help.

Cheers

GC