Please Help Identify this Soldier (Thanks!)

[GMSorrel]

I'm trying to help a friend identify the photo shown. He's asked around to a few who deal in CW photos and the jury is still out: is this a Confederate or Federal? The case has an ID of sorts, but there is no way to determine if the case is original to the photo or not. If you believe the ID, the photo (no name) has a connection to "Sandersville GA" which would mean a Southern boy……but no one is sure. Hopefully someone here can break the case. Here's some observations/questions:
1. Of course the light coat does not automatically mean Reb. Some tend to believe that this resembles the Union VRC coats. Although similar, all of the VRC photos online usually have ~12 buttons. There is a note that some could have been made with as few as 9 buttons. This photo seems to indicate either 5 or 6 buttons. Also the buttons have been gilded – Is that typically more Southern or Northern or both? As one pointed out, of what can be seen the coat does resemble somewhat a Richmond Depot.
2. The bow tie/shirt seems Southern. There is another Confederate soldier photo that has almost this same identical tie, the uniform is similar except with twice the buttons (http://www.scv1642.com/Localconfederates.html).
3. It is the Kepi pin that makes the stronger case for a Federal. No match for the style has been found – it's similar somewhat to the Union Ninth Corps and also to the individual name tags that some soldiers would make. As for the South, there typically were not unique pins like this – normally just letters or numbers. If it is a VRC soldier, would there be a real reason to have a name tag (wouldn't be in combat to have to be identified???). Maybe it is something that came from an earlier Pre-war militia uniform?
I want to encourage one and all to post any comments, suggestions, etc. that might shed more light on which side this soldier may have served. THANK YOU!!!

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

It's a great photo! We have some amazing experts here, people who could tell you what the badge on his hat was, experts. Not being one of them, have to ask, isn't it possible to ascertain whether or not this is original to the case by taking it out? If wear marks match, it's original?

Hope someone identifies his badge for you- light blue VRC or gray, whew! Can see the problem. Have to say, have never seen that tie on a Union soldier and plenty of very cool neckwear on Confederate men.

 

[GMSorrel]

Thanks for the suggestion. We looked but the material inside the case is soft to where it doesn't leave any marks. If we could only find a match for that badge.....

 

[Dacluver]

I don't think it's VRC. When it came to the buttons they went all out.

 

[major bill]

I am not sure I see a VRC uniform here.

The cap badge bothers me. It kind of looks British to me, perhaps a lion at the top of the badge and a motto under it. Can some one place this badge? I do know that some Civil War era militia companies wore badges with tigers heads and roosters being sort of common. Some American militia companies did wear British style uniforms, but these uniforms often had "British" caps and this is not a Civil War era "British" cap.

It is just a feeling I get, but there is almost a post war look to him as well. But the cap does not look post war.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

Fireman? I see what you mean about postwar, with the mustache? That darn tie seems so ' Confederate ', early war, right? Again, no expert here, going by other photographs. Have seen occupational photographs which ring a bell, firemen with hats, if not badges- would have to go dig up the photos. Guessing they had badges, can't remember what they were.

Thanks for the suggestion. We looked but the material inside the case is soft to where it doesn't leave any marks. If we could only find a match for that badge.....

Hmm, rats. Hang on, we have several knock down, drag-out experts here. If this man is indeed Civil War they will certainly know- and just as quickly call out any nonsense I've managed to guess so far.
James B White , without flattering unnecessarily, has accidentally taught me more in 4 years than I learned in 50 and James N. spots those badges, uniforms and heck buttons from a football field away, both know these old relics from the past, photographs, tintypes, ambrotypes etc.

 

[major bill]

I thought perhaps it was his privately purchased identification badge. I reviewed many style of these identification badges and do not see any that have this basic shape.

 

[major bill]

I hate to even offer a guess on this uniform. What I will do is discuss uniform trends and general usage. Remember this is simply uniform trends and these trends were not set in stone. This is complicated by me trying to decide what type of coat or jacket the man wears.

1. Before the Civil War enlisted men wearing numbers or badges on the front of the cap was common in the militia. During the war the insignia was moved to the top of the cap. After the Civil War enlisted men the militia again moved insignia to the front of the cap.

2. Before the Civil War most images of militia men show them doing everything they could to look like a soldier and they usually wore their uniforms in a very proper way. Remember they wanted to impress people, especially young women, and they wanted to look like proper soldiers even if they were little more than civilians. During the war men had their images taken in a more relaxed expression. They wanted to appear to be harden veterans that had earned the right to ignore uniform regulations. They wanted to appear to be fighters and not parade ground soldiers.

3. Before the war tall standing collars were more common and shorter standing collar or stand/fall collars were increasing common. Pre war collars usually had braid or other decorations like button on their collar. After the war collars trended to have less braid and trim.

So let me sum up my observations. There are some details in the image that makes me believe it could be pre war. 1. The insignia on the front of the cap. 2. He might be wearing a type of roundabout jacket which were common before the war for fatigue dress or undress for many militia units.

That are some details that make me feel he is form the Civil War. The jacket is very plain and not very fancy. The shoulder straps are cheaply made and the jacket lack any trim. The jacket, if it is a roundabout jacket, has less buttons than normal. The collar is shorter than pre war collars, but taller than at least some post war collars. The jacket is just to plain to be pre war, it has a look of being made with as little cloth and as little trim and as few buttons as possible. All of which says to me who ever was purchasing the uniforms was trying to skimp on cloth and buttons to save money. The man is trying to look like he is a fighter and not a parade ground soldier. Note the open jacket and the non regulation tie.

The post war details are the hair and mustache style. Also the badge on the front of the cap. Just in general man looks post war. However his uniform is very plain and not worn in a very military style. Why would someone post war be in a militia company that would wear such plain uniforms? I mean again he wants to impress people with his military bearing and then goes out of his way to look un-military and wear a uniform that is overly plain? Let us say this is post Civil War and he has a fancy dress uniform to impress people and also a work uniform to wear to do fatigue duties in. Why wear your work uniform to the photographer when you spend big money for a fancy uniform?

 

[TerryB]

He had a brother...

All kidding aside, this is a fascinating problem.

 

[James N.]

The jacket in the photo isn't a VRC jacket: they were almost the same cut as the more familiar cavalry or artillery shell jackets like on this sergeant in my collection. Note the "tape" trim that edges the front and also (though unseen here) the top of the collar and bottom of the jacket; it also exists ON the collar as the "false buttonhole(s)" seen here. VRC jackets DID have shoulder straps, but they, too, were edged with the wool tape binding. Your confusion as to number of buttons has to do with whether the garment is a shell jacket (12 small buttons) or a frock coat (9 large buttons); this isn't always evident when the subject is seated. My sergeant is definitely wearing a shell jacket and has the small size buttons - I tend to think your man is also wearing a shell jacket, but one with fewer buttons (8-9) like Confederates tended to wear.

 

[James N.]

Keep in mind, however, that gray uniforms do not always a Rebel make, as in the case of another fellow in my collection:

I bought this so long ago - back in the 1960's - that there was NO reason for it to have been tampered with; although he certainly looks Confederate, he's cased in a patriotic Union case that is the double for THIS one:

 

[Dacluver]

Certain state forces, such as the Enrolled Missouri Militia were not outfitted with uniforms and weapons and were required to furnish themselves.

Could the man in this photo be trying to do so? That's why it doesn't really resemble other uniforms.

 

[major bill]

Yes not all gray uniforms were worn by Southerners and not all blue uniforms were worn by Union soldiers.

 

[major bill]

Certain state forces, such as the Enrolled Missouri Militia were not outfitted with uniforms and weapons and were required to furnish themselves.

Could the man in this photo be trying to do so? That's why it doesn't really resemble other uniforms.

I does in fact resemble other uniforms The variance in jackets worn during the Civil War covers this style of jacket. If it proves to be a early to late war Confederate uniform would not surprise me. It is the cap badge that gives me problems. One they I have is that is is a Northern or Southern soldier who was in a pre war militia company and that company was issued or bought simple campaign uniforms to which the militia companies added the badge off their old militia uniforms. The normally upper middle classed pre war militia members could be expected to express their wealth and fashion sense by wearing a stylish tie.

The badge looks like it has a lion or tiger above a motto and has a very "British" look to it. There were many militia companies that styled themselves as the "Whatever Tigers" but a tiger head woudl be more common that this style of badge. I am looking forward to some of our forum members who are more knowledgeable than I am Civil War badges will come to our aid.

 

[GMSorrel]

Wow! I want to thank you all for the many comments and the time to type out such detailed responses (and the funny photo!) They are great. I hope you all keep this photo in your mind and maybe when you come across something similar in the future, you can post it on this site. Maybe someone can finally identify a similar badge/pin. Thank you so much. As much as it would be great to match this guy to someone, it's still really fun to learn so much from others while the search continues.

 

[E_just_E]

Those epaulets scream post-civil war. So does the bow tie. I'd say 1880s+

 

[Pvt.Shattuck]

Very intriguing because of the mixed clues (the 'stache looks post war, the cap badge looks pre-war) but the shirt! That is a sure 'nuff Confederate battle shirt if I ever did see one.

 

[Package4]

IMHO this is post war, basically Indian War militia, I enlarged the picture as much as my computer would allow and it is almost impossible to see the fabric weave, leading me to believe it is a broadcloth of some sort. The kepi also looks very post war 1872 model, though the brim is thinner than I would expect. The picture does not scream pre war due to the lack of braid/tape and typical finery found on pre-war militia uniforms. The visible button hole looks to be set farther back from the edge than typical Confederate Depot Shell jackets as well and it appears when blown up to be machine sewn, though that is not definite due to resolution.

Have you taken it out of the case to see if there is rank on the sleeve?

 

[James N.]

Those epaulets scream post-civil war. So does the bow tie. I'd say 1880s+

IMHO this is post war, basically Indian War militia...

Not at all... Besides, this is pretty evidently an ambrotype, a style that was rendered obsolete by tintypes, CDV's, and by the 1870's and 80's cabinet cards. I doubt few if any ambrotypes were made postwar.

 

[GMSorrel]

I will have to get the photo and see. Can the gold portion be removed without damaging the image? We don't have any experience with this type of photograph. I certainly don't want to compromise the item....