Jesse James

[archieclement]

And funniest aspect of such discussions it's mostly conjecture, the only killing by Jesse James generally considered fact was the Conductor William Westfall, and ironically Jesse only shot him after Frank had wounded him in the arm.

Two versions why, supposedly Jesse claimed he recognised him as conductor of train which brought Pinkertons to kill his little brother. Which besides making little sense, as how would he knew who was on the train, it seems to be likely an Edward's invention.

Dick Liddel who was there, in his confession said Jesse thought he was going for a gun.

Same at Northfield, many think Frank shot the teller Heyward as well. Why never quite get the Jesse bad, Frank a saint spin. And according to Youngers James weren't even at Northfield.

And ironically in the Westfall murder, who Frank had shot first......Frank was aquitted

 

[Borderruffian]

What has to be remembered is the the James-Younger gang started becoming folk heroes during the Radical Republican Reconstruction in Missouri. Former CS soldiers, their family members and even extended family members were purposely punished in taxes, property seizures, being disinfrancised, being unable to vote etc. The gang was seen by a good many as valiant knights errant by robbing Northern business interests i.e. Rail Roads and banks, thus avenging the wrongs committed by the Fletcher Government and Radical Republican faction of Republican Party

 

[archieclement]

What has to be remembered is the the James-Younger gang started becoming folk heroes during the Radical Republican Reconstruction in Missouri. Former CS soldiers, their family members and even extended family members were purposely punished in taxes, property seizures, being disinfrancised, being unable to vote etc. The gang was seen by a good many as valiant knights errant by robbing Northern business interests i.e. Rail Roads and banks, thus avenging the wrongs committed by the Fletcher Government and Radical Republican faction of Republican Party

Much the same with depression era, banks were seen the villians repossessing properties.

 

[JackADriscoll]

I think they're interesting in the same way mountain men, law men, explorers et al are interesting. There's a little of the under dog that a lot of people find endearing and there's also the I could do that... I could be that adventurous... Right?

 

[JerryD]

Again I never advanced any personal romantic vision at all.

All I actually said in context to JJ being viewed a hero was that certainly historically he was.

Seems to still be the way he's referenced in song still.

The tilting windmills get old, but can't reference "50's romantic vision" or Robin Hood myths without actually acknowledging what I said, he certainly was viewed a folk hero historically....

Maybe you missed it, but in a prior post I made clear I am talking about how he is viewed today. No doubt he was viewed as a hero in the past by some, much like Bonnie and Clyde were. And to this day as well, I am sure. I am just saying his public perception is changing to the negative as time goes on, but some folks cling to old views.

Just a side note, in a very flawed poll of docents at the Smithsonian, when asked to chose, Jesse James was a (a) hero, or (b) criminal, 6 out of 6 picked criminal. And two out of six outright laughed at the idea he was a hero. The others just look confused that there was even a question. Margin for error: Over 100% I suspect. We history geeks are not exactly representative of the general public.

 

[JerryD]

One the folk heros who most has fell to obscurity is John Smith T......during his life he was well known.

He was quick to anger and challenge people to formal duels, as his reputation grew many declined.........but he went 14-0

Kinda defies laws of averages

Who? John Smith as in Jamestown John Smith?

 

[TallTallMan]

Maybe you missed it, but in a prior post I made clear I am talking about how he is viewed today. No doubt he was viewed as a hero in the past by some, much like Bonnie and Clyde were. And to this day as well, I am sure. I am just saying his public perception is changing to the negative as time goes on, but some folks cling to old views.

Just a side note, in a very flawed poll of docents at the Smithsonian, when asked to chose, Jesse James was a (a) hero, or (b) criminal, 6 out of 6 picked criminal. And two out of six outright laughed at the idea he was a hero. The others just look confused that there was even a question. Margin for error: Over 100% I suspect. We history geeks are not exactly representative of the general public.

Who was talking about now? We're talking about then. And criminals can be folklore heroes while admiting they're villains.

 

[archieclement]

Who? John Smith as in Jamestown John Smith?

No, he was a Virginian though, then moved to Tennessee, then later Missouri.

 

[JerryD]

Who was talking about now? We're talking about then. And criminals can be folklore heroes while admiting they're villains.

Well, I guess it started with post 4 where someone mentioned even today some view him as a hero. And then you chimed in in post 5 to express your view on his current public perception. Many others then chimed in as well. So its been going on for awhile now.

 

[archieclement]

Maybe you missed it, but in a prior post I made clear I am talking about how he is viewed today. No doubt he was viewed as a hero in the past by some, much like Bonnie and Clyde were. And to this day as well, I am sure. I am just saying his public perception is changing to the negative as time goes on, but some folks cling to old views.

Just a side note, in a very flawed poll of docents at the Smithsonian, when asked to chose, Jesse James was a (a) hero, or (b) criminal, 6 out of 6 picked criminal. And two out of six outright laughed at the idea he was a hero. The others just look confused that there was even a question. Margin for error: Over 100% I suspect. We history geeks are not exactly representative of the general public.

Indeed "folk hero" isn't decided by academia. It's common folks perceptions.

A college professors heros category never seemed to catch on with public.

 

[Mike Serpa]

Bob, Henrietta, Jim, Cole

Younger Gang: A Rare Original Photo of Cole, Jim, and Bob Younger with their Sister Henrietta, Taken at Stillwater Prison in 1889. In early September 1889, the boys' sister travelled from Missouri to plead for her brothers' release. Her efforts were fruitless, but the prison warden did allow her to bring in suits of clothing and a local photographer. Bob would die just two weeks later of complications from wounds received during the infamous Northfield, Minnesota bank robbery.

Sold for $5,975.00 on December 11, 2012

https://historical.ha.com/itm/photography/cabinet-photos/younger-gang-a-rare-original-photo-of-cole-jim-and-bob-younger-with-their-sister-henrietta-taken-at-stillwater-prison-in-1889/a/6092-38589.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

 

[Bur Oak]

Good point about Clyde Barrow. The same thing happened with John Dillinger. James was a criminal and killer like them. Despite that they all acquired some sort of status as folk heroes for a time. But that doesn't change who and what they actually were, and eventually people seem to figure that out.

Evidently not everyone.

(During my days of trying different bourbons, I ran across this brand. I refused to try this one because of the name.)

 

[JerryD]

Indeed "folk hero" isn't decided by academia. It's common folks perceptions.

A college professors heros category never seemed to catch on with public.

No idea why you posted this, as I never mentioned any professors. I am talking about common folks.

 

[archieclement]

No idea why you posted this, as I never mentioned any professors. I am talking about common folks.

Just an example of academia not deciding folk heros.

Although in your referencing Smithsonian docents, you noted.......

"Margin for error: Over 100% I suspect. We history geeks are not exactly representative of the general public."

I agree, as well would agree academia isn't often representative of the general public.

 

[DanSBHawk]

@DanSBHawk @archieclement Let's please stop with Mr. Brown. My blood pressure's going up.

You're a young guy. Don't worry about your blood pressure.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Thieves are scumbags, not heroes. That's my opinion.

 

[JerryD]

Just an example of academia not deciding folk heros.

Although in your referencing Smithsonian docents, you noted.......

"Margin for error: Over 100% I suspect. We history geeks are not exactly representative of the general public."

I agree, as well would agree academia isn't often representative of the general public.

Ok, now I see. Docents are not professors. We are volunteers from all walks of life who get trained on how to show the museum to the public. I was a lawyer. We have doctors, housewives, students, engineers, school teachers and all kinds of other professions doing this. But we are all history geeks. But we are far, far from academia!! We dont even get paid. This is my retirement gig.

 

[huskerblitz]

I wonder how many folks heard much of Crockett before the Disney programs in the 1950s. Sadly I think some folks considered Disney true history.

Boone still shows up in my history lessons every year. We talk about Crockett being a former member of Congress prior to his departure to Texas.

 

[TallTallMan]

 

[Patrick H]

What has to be remembered is the the James-Younger gang started becoming folk heroes during the Radical Republican Reconstruction in Missouri. Former CS soldiers, their family members and even extended family members were purposely punished in taxes, property seizures, being disinfrancised, being unable to vote etc. The gang was seen by a good many as valiant knights errant by robbing Northern business interests i.e. Rail Roads and banks, thus avenging the wrongs committed by the Fletcher Government and Radical Republican faction of Republican Party

Thank you for this.