Jesse James

[TallTallMan]

He certainly was at the time. He was rather a hero to the democrat majority of the state. It speaks as much to how poorly the Republican minority was viewed, and the lengths they had gone to try to remain in power. (Drake Constitution). As well he had a good press man

Then Pinkertons cemented the myth by killing Archie and maiming his mom.

Union Major General Francis Blair correctly pointed out he couldn't even vote if Drake was actually impartially applied..........Abraham Lincoln couldn't have voted if a Missouri resident, how ridiculous it was.

Bob Boze Bell of True West said that Arizona people viewed the Earps as "carpetbaggers". Pretty funny in the Southwest!

 

[DanSBHawk]

I guess hacking some guys he didn't agree with was a much saintlier deed.

Honestly, even the kleptomaniacal nuts called the James-Younger Gang didn't do anything like this.

Also, there is no way of knowing how popular Brown was. Given the large amount of evidence that the average Union soldier was indifferent to slavery on at least a moral basis, it seems unlikely everyone approved of him. Lincoln didn't.

It just goes to show that people tend to overlook criminality if it seems to serve some ulterior purpose.

 

[TallTallMan]

It just goes to show that people tend to overlook criminality if it seems to serve some ulterior purpose.

I don't think @archieclement was defending Jesse James.

 

[archieclement]

I don't think @archieclement was defending Jesse James.

No just noting reality, if talking historically certainly JJ is up there with Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett as name recognition American folk heros.

That there's still films, books, and songs about him suggests still is rather popular. As when I did the song thread, many of the songs featuring JJ are rather modern.

 

[Pollaco]

They look more like Texas Rangers to me.

I was about to say the same thing. I think I've seen that picture in an article about Texas Rangers.

 

[JackADriscoll]

I like true West magazine. Here's one to wet your whistle

The James Younger Gang: The Early Years – True West Magazine

For many of the guerilla fighters the Civil War didn't end at Appomattox.

truewestmagazine.com

 

[TallTallMan]

I like true West magazine. Here's one to wet your whistle

The James Younger Gang: The Early Years – True West Magazine

For many of the guerilla fighters the Civil War didn't end at Appomattox.

truewestmagazine.com

I'm subscribed to them. Just got the Bass Reeves issue.

 

[DanSBHawk]

No just noting reality, if talking historically certainly JJ is up there with Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett as name recognition American folk heros.

And certainly John Brown as well.

 

[7thWisconsin]

No just noting reality, if talking historically certainly JJ is up there with Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett as name recognition American folk heros.

That there's still films, books, and songs about him suggests still is rather popular. As when I did the song thread, many of the songs featuring JJ are rather modern.

I think part of it is the way his name spills off the tongue ¨Jesse James.¨ 3 syllables... alliterative... even people who aren´t knterested in the Civil War or western outlaws can resonate with it. It almost has a poetic structure.

 

[archieclement]

And certainly John Brown as well.

Certainly not in the midwest, it's simply synonymous with crazy to most people. Though I suspect if a did a poll, it wouldn't have the same level of name recognition as well.

But the OP isn't Brown anyway, perhaps you should start a thread trying to make your claim of Brown as a widespread popular American folk hero.

You may like him, that doesn't make one a American Folk Hero

Like to me the OP has nothing to do with personal view at all, but simply looking how James has been viewed, popularity and enshrined in America culture for 150 years. When it comes to folk heroes, certainly Boone, Crockett, James are big three. Buffalo Bill might be close.

Just as if one has a negative view of James, it certainly doesn't change how American culture has embraced him as a popular figure for 150 years.

 

[JerryD]

Certainly not in the midwest, it's simply synonymous with crazy to most people. Though I suspect if a did a poll, it wouldn't have the same level of name recognition as well.

But the OP isn't Brown anyway, perhaps you should start a thread trying to make your claim of Brown as a widespread popular American folk hero.

You may like him, that doesn't make one a American Folk Hero

Like to me the OP has nothing to do with personal view at all, but simply looking how James has been viewed, popularity and enshrined in America culture for 150 years. When it comes to folk heroes, certainly Boone, Crockett, James are big three. Buffalo Bill might be close.

Just as if one has a negative view of James, it certainly doesn't change how American culture has embraced him as a popular figure for 150 years.

Kinda like how the public embraced Bonnie and Clyde, when in reality Clyde was a psychopathic killer. Thousands showed up at both their funerals. But I think public perception on James and Bonnie and Clyde is changing. I think the general public has a better understanding these days that they were just criminal and killers, and their public persona has nothing to do with reality. I really dont think these days that James is viewed on a par with Boone and Crockett. People are more educated about him these days.

Oddly enough, I think John Brown's rep, who was also a psycho, tends to be improving since he was on the "right side" of history, despite the fact he was a serial killer. Funny how perceptions change over time.

Interesting paper that describes how James' public perception has changed over time as depicted in popular culture (i.e., movies), from an early movie that is basically a love story about James, to a movie in the 50's that removed the hero and looked at him as a flawed psychological actor, to a film from the 1970's that depicts more as a blood thirsty killer who is obsessed with his revenge and his legend.

https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1196&context=etd

 

[Richard Appledorf]

I read somewhere that when many foreigners hear the word Missouri they automatically think of Mark Twain and Jesse James.

 

[Pollaco]

I'm not seeing how John Brown and Jesse James are even in the same league with Boone and Crockett as folk heros. Maybe it's a Midwest thing but here in Texas both Brown and James are viewed as mere outlaws or criminals.

 

[Kurtlg]

I'm not seeing how John Brown and Jesse James are even in the same league with Boone and Crockett as folk heros. Maybe it's a Midwest thing but here in Texas both Brown and James are viewed as mere outlaws or criminals.

James is not viewed fondly in Michigan. If you mention Boone and Crocket here people probably think of big whitetail deer. Very few would have a clue as to who Brown was.

 

[archieclement]

Kinda like how the public embraced Bonnie and Clyde, when in reality Clyde was a psychopathic killer. Thousands showed up at both their funerals. But I think public perception on James and Bonnie and Clyde is changing. I think the general public has a better understanding these days that they were just criminal and killers, and their public persona has nothing to do with reality. I really dont think these days that James is viewed on a par with Boone and Crockett. People are more educated about him these days.

Oddly enough, I think John Brown's rep, who was also a psycho, tends to be improving since he was on the "right side" of history, despite the fact he was a serial killer. Funny how perceptions change over time.

Interesting paper that describes how James' public perception has changed over time as depicted in popular culture (i.e., movies), from an early movie that is basically a love story about James, to a movie in the 50's that removed the hero and looked at him as a flawed psychological actor, to a film from the 1970's that depicts more as a blood thirsty killer who is obsessed with his revenge and his legend.

https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1196&context=etd

Indeed perception is reality, certainly when noting how they were historically viewed.
Don't think image of Brown or James has changed much among general public.

The thing with James story is it wasnt ever one thing.

His family was victimized during the war

He's shot trying to surrender.....

During outlaw years, neither banks or Railroads were viewed all that favorably.

Then his family is victimized by Pinkertons.

And in the end, he's rather a martyr, as Bob and Charlie Ford go down in history as dirty little cowards. Which it's hard to paint them as anything else.

 

[Kurtlg]

Indeed perception is reality, certainly when noting how they were historically viewed.
Don't think image of Brown or James has changed much among general public.

The thing with James story is it wasnt ever one thing.

His family was victimized during the war

He's shot trying to surrender.....

During outlaw years, neither banks or Railroads were viewed all that favorably.

Then his family is victimized by Pinkertons.

And in the end, he's rather a martyr, as Bob and Charlie Ford go down in history as dirty little cowards. Which it's hard to paint them as anything else.

I always wondered about bank robberies back in the day. If regular folks had money in a bank that was robbed were they reimbursed or did they just lose their money ?

 

[Patrick H]

They look more like Texas Rangers to me.

Actually, my thoughts were similar. I thought these guys looked like a well-armed posse, except no one is wearing a deputy's badge.

 

[Patrick H]

There's a surprisingly good t.v. movie titled The Last Days of Frank and Jesse James. In one scene the boys are robbing the passengers of a train. One of the victims seems very pleased to be having his little brush with celebrities. As he hands over his pocket watch, he says to Frank "If I'm to be robbed, I'm glad it's by genuine artists... ...Men of NATIONAL reputation!" In another scene where they are robbing a bank, Frank notices the calloused hands of a farmer standing with his hands up. Frank says "Is that your money or the bank's?" Then Frank closes the man's hand over the small roll of money he was about to deposit. Now, these scenes are pure fabrication, and they are only meant to make the movie more entertaining. And it IS entertaining! But these scenes illustrate very clearly how the myth of the James Gang is still perpetuated.

 

[Kurtlg]

I saw an episode of a show with chef Andrew Zimmern or Gordon Ramsey I believe where he visited rural areas in Missouri to sample local cooking. At a couple of homes family legend was that the James Gang visited and they were fed without the owner asking any payment. After the gang left they found a gold coin under each plate. Family legend or truth ? Who knows.

 

[Patrick H]

I'm thinking alot of the Jesse James Legend is just that, "legend".He was just a bandit. No need to make him out some Heroic Robin Hood Character, he did that himself from what I understand.

I agree that Jesse was just a common hoodlum--but with a huge flair for self promotion. However, I see Frank as a more complex sort of person. I don't believe he ever really liked being an outlaw, and he famously surrendered to the governor of Missouri so that he could live a peaceful life. He was a dependable guerrilla fighter--very brave and sometimes ruthless in combat. And yet, John McCorkle wrote of seeing Frank release a prisoner when the man made secret hand signals to him (Masonic brothers, I assume.) Frank wrote of being "the most scared" during an assault on a block house in Fayette, Missouri in 1864, yet he apparently exposed himself to enemy fire from the blockhouse as he pulled wounded buddies out of the street. He remained Cole Younger's best friend during their lives, and traveled with him as an attraction in Cole's Wild West Show for some years after Cole's prison term. This period is nicely depicted at the end of the Jeff Bridges version of True Grit. When their show came to Boonville, Missouri, they found themselves in a unique predicament. Neither man had any small denomination currency. Their smallest was a $50 bill. Cole suggested they go into one of the local banks to exchange their large bills for smaller ones. Frank said "Cole Younger and Frank James can't EVER walk into a bank together...ever again!" Their cab driver went in and made the exchange for them. Frank traveled around Missouri going to fairs, horse races, etc., and was a minor celebrity wherever he went. He gave frequent interviews to newspaper reporters, and their are many photos of him as a peaceful citizen. He was proud of being a Quantrill man, and is shown in photos of their reunions. He lived out his last days on the family farm near Kearney, Missouri--charging admission to curiosity seekers who wanted to come in and view the place and the old rebel outlaw. He was scared of potential grave robbers, so Annie kept his ashes in a bank vault in Independence, Missouri until she died in the 1940s. They are buried almost anonymously in a tiny settler's cemetery in Independence.