Jesse James

[Borderruffian]

Much the same with depression era, banks were seen the villians repossessing properties.

Kinda Sorta anyway but you know as well as I do . That was how Missouri was ' pacified "Missouri was off the chain from 1861 to the end of Radical Reconstruction. Arson, killings, lynchings, property seizures, imprisonment, banishment etc. Not only of verified Southern Sympathetic citizens but citizens THOUGHT to be sympathetic to the South as reported my their " neighbors" to the Provost Marshal. Union forces or shall we say pseudo Union forces like Redlegs, Jayhawkers a good many of the MSM companies and outstate troops ran rough shod over portions of the state particularly Western, Little Dixie Northeastern and even Southwest Missouri. These pseudo formations created more Rebs than they deterred. Case in point the Younger Brothers father a Unionist and a US Post Master was robbed and murdered by I believe the 6th MSM, well we know how that turned....the Younger boys went to Brush with WCQ. Riley Crawford father was hung in his barn and barn burnt down around him, his mother took him to WCQ so he might "avenge" his father's death ( murder)

 

[Borderruffian]

Much the same with depression era, banks were seen the villians repossessing properties.

Kinda Sorta anyway but you know as well as I do . That was how Missouri was ' pacified "Missouri was off the chain from 1861 to the end of Radical Reconstruction. Arson, killings, lynchings, property seizures, imprisonment, banishment etc. Not only of verified Southern Sympathetic citizens but citizens THOUGHT to be sympathetic to the South as reported my their " neighbors" to the Provost Marshal. Union forces or shall we say pseudo Union forces like Redlegs, Jayhawkers a good many of the MSM companies and outstate troops ran rough shod over portions of the state particularly Western, Little Dixie Northeastern and even Southwest Missouri. These pseudo formations created more Rebs than they deterred. Case in point the Younger Brothers father a Unionist and a US Post Master was robbed and murdered by I believe the 6th MSM, well we know how that turned....the Younger boys went to Brush with WCQ. Riley Crawford father was hung in his barn and barn burnt down around him, his mother took him to WCQ so he might "avenge" his father's death ( murder)

 

[Borderruffian]

Much the same with depression era, banks were seen the villians repossessing properties.

Kinda Sorta anyway but you know as well as I do . That was how Missouri was ' pacified "Missouri was off the chain from 1861 to the end of Radical Reconstruction. Arson, killings, lynchings, property seizures, imprisonment, banishment etc. Not only of verified Southern Sympathetic citizens but citizens THOUGHT to be sympathetic to the South as reported my their " neighbors" to the Provost Marshal. Union forces or shall we say pseudo Union forces like Redlegs, Jayhawkers a good many of the MSM companies and outstate troops ran rough shod over portions of the state particularly Western, Little Dixie Northeastern and even Southwest Missouri. These pseudo formations created more Rebs than they deterred. Case in point the Younger Brothers father a Unionist and a US Post Master was robbed and murdered by I believe the 6th MSM, well we know how that turned....the Younger boys went to Brush with WCQ. Riley Crawford father was hung in his barn and barn burnt down around him, his mother took him to WCQ so he might "avenge" his father's death ( murder)

 

[archieclement]

Kinda Sorta anyway but you know as well as I do . That was how Missouri was ' pacified "Missouri was off the chain from 1861 to the end of Radical Reconstruction. Arson, killings, lynchings, property seizures, imprisonment, banishment etc. Not only of verified Southern Sympathetic citizens but citizens THOUGHT to be sympathetic to the South as reported my their " neighbors" to the Provost Marshal. Union forces or shall we say pseudo Union forces like Redlegs, Jayhawkers a good many of the MSM companies and outstate troops ran rough shod over portions of the state particularly Western, Little Dixie Northeastern and even Southwest Missouri. These pseudo formations created more Rebs than they deterred. Case in point the Younger Brothers father a Unionist and a US Post Master was robbed and murdered by I believe the 6th MSM, well we know how that turned....the Younger boys went to Brush with WCQ. Riley Crawford father was hung in his barn and barn burnt down around him, his mother took him to WCQ so he might "avenge" his father's death ( murder)

Indeed why I pointed out earlier the James legend isn't as much what he did, as was what was done to his family, himself, and to a large degree most the rural population of the state.

There are thousands or millions of criminals through history, only a few ever gain public sympathy and support, there's generally actually reasons behind why the few do.

 

[Borderruffian]

Indeed why I pointed out earlier the James legend isn't as much what he did, as was what was done to his family, himself, and to a large degree most the rural population of the state.

There are thousands or millions of criminals through history, only a few ever gain public sympathy and support, there's generally actually reasons behind why the few do.

I do however , think that the gang did go beyond the pale in some instances.

 

[JerryD]

Kinda Sorta anyway but you know as well as I do . That was how Missouri was ' pacified "Missouri was off the chain from 1861 to the end of Radical Reconstruction. Arson, killings, lynchings, property seizures, imprisonment, banishment etc. Not only of verified Southern Sympathetic citizens but citizens THOUGHT to be sympathetic to the South as reported my their " neighbors" to the Provost Marshal. Union forces or shall we say pseudo Union forces like Redlegs, Jayhawkers a good many of the MSM companies and outstate troops ran rough shod over portions of the state particularly Western, Little Dixie Northeastern and even Southwest Missouri. These pseudo formations created more Rebs than they deterred. Case in point the Younger Brothers father a Unionist and a US Post Master was robbed and murdered by I believe the 6th MSM, well we know how that turned....the Younger boys went to Brush with WCQ. Riley Crawford father was hung in his barn and barn burnt down around him, his mother took him to WCQ so he might "avenge" his father's death ( murder)

From your post you make it sound like all the murdering was on one side and that the southern leaning Missourians were a bunch of sheep who just stood around until they got slaughtered. I have to admit, I have not studied the war in Missouri, but all I have heard was that it was pretty brutal on both sides. Are you saying the southerners were a bunch of pansies who didn't know how to protect themselves? Sure sounds like it. I always assumed that at least some of the southerners had a decent amount of manhood, but maybe I am wrong about that. Is that really the image you want to project?

 

[JerryD]

Edited: double post

 

[archieclement]

From your post you make it sound like all the murdering was on one side and that the southern leaning Missourians were a bunch of sheep who just stood around until they got slaughtered. I have to admit, I have not studied the war in Missouri, but all I have heard was that it was pretty brutal on both sides. Are you saying the southerners were a bunch of pansies who didn't know how to protect themselves? Sure sounds like it. I always assumed that at least some of the southerners had a decent amount of manhood, but maybe I am wrong about that. Is that really the image you want to project?

Kind of bizzare post, we are actually talking about US citizens who should have expected US authorities to protect them just as we do today, not being the ones to be committing outrages.

That the population of Missouri had voted overwhelming against secession would suggest they would been "north leaning" so certainly wouldn't expected to be targeted by occupation.

 

[JerryD]

Kind of bizzare post, we are actually talking about US citizens who should have expected US authorities to protect them just as we do today, not being the ones to be committing outrages.

That the population of Missouri had voted overwhelming against secession would suggest they would been "north leaning" so certainly wouldn't expected to be targeted by occupation.

I think you are missing the point of the post. I know Missouri overwhelmingly sent more troops to the US than they did to the CSA. But I was responding to the one way nature of the borderruffian's post. He makes it sound like all the violence was on one side. Is that true? Maybe it is. I really have not read anything on Mo. during the war except peripherally. But I had always heard that the neighbor on neighbor violence in Mo. was extreme on both sides. Is that false?

Fellow border stater here, and Maryland was also occupied during the war, but granted, we did not have violence going on that I have always heard occurred in Mo.

 

[archieclement]

I think you are missing the point of the post. I know Missouri overwhelmingly sent more troops to the US than they did to the CSA. But I was responding to the one way nature of the borderruffian's post. He makes it sound like all the violence was on one side. Is that true? Maybe it is. I really have not read anything on Mo. during the war except peripherally. But I had always heard that the neighbor on neighbor violence in Mo. was extreme on both sides. Is that false?

Fellow border stater here, and Maryland was also occupied during the war, but granted, we did not have violence going on that I have always heard occurred in Mo.

As far as guerrilla war, and sympathy it is.

Initially after Camp Jackson, a call goes out for the MSG, the militia that becomes the nucleus of Missouri Confederates. It's hard to definitely tell its strength, but would think 40,000 is a realistic number.....out of a population a little over 1,000,000 in 1860. Of that 40,000 likely 20-25,000 entered Confederate service from MSG. As things were chaotic, some changed minds and returned home, as well Union realized chaotic situation and that the call for MSG was legal, so offered amnesty if they would quit and return home. During this period there was little guerrilla activity.

However during period, jawhawker outlaws raided from Kansas, out of state troops often treated slaveowners as disloyal without reason. The frustration of Union being unable to swiftly deal with MSG lead to punitive policies against population. So by spring of 1862 a population that had been Union leaning, started to have doubts, guerrillas became widespread, as support for them.

Study of situation here is odd, as authors often contradict themselves. The war was essentially inheritly political, Republican vrs Democrat more then north or south.

 

[Borderruffian]

From your post you make it sound like all the murdering was on one side and that the southern leaning Missourians were a bunch of sheep who just stood around until they got slaughtered. I have to admit, I have not studied the war in Missouri, but all I have heard was that it was pretty brutal on both sides. Are you saying the southerners were a bunch of pansies who didn't know how to protect themselves? Sure sounds like it. I always assumed that at least some of the southerners had a decent amount of manhood, but maybe I am wrong about that. Is that really the image you want to project?

Uh not really sure your point. I was referring to the conditions in Missouri from 1861 thru Radical Reconstruction not Kansas, not the IT, Missouri. Missouri had been in some form or another, especially in the West central counties been involved in a sort of civil war (border war) since 1856. After 1861 Missouri was in effect an State not in Secession occupied by forces of the Union they had not Seceeded from. The northern propaganda machine and the abolitionist Propogandists managed to convince many Unionists that ALL residents off Missouri were disloyal " Slaveocrats". Were Missourians " sheep" not by a **** sight, were they raided and depredations committed on them, regardless of actual sympathy or loyalty? Most certainly. Did Missouri raid into Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, the IT? Most Certainly they did. It was how the war in Missouri was. My advice would be to actually study the war in Missouri before expounding on it ......'kay Puddin'

 

[archieclement]

The contradiction stems from a Republican minority used the war to gain control of an overwhelming Democrat state.

So even though the majority of the population had been or was loyal, they were Democrat who the Republican minority in charge saw as enemies and a political threat. In 1860 Missouri voted 90% for Democrat candidates. So why even though Missouri overwhelmingly voted to stay in Union, and provided 150,000 Union troops to 30-40000 confederates, you see wartime Republican politicians or military commanders acting like majority of the state was disloyal, which the evidence doesn't support at all. Democrats could be unionist.

However it was somewhat self fulfilling, as they treated the population disloyal, disloyalty certainly increases in response.

 

[DanSBHawk]

From your post you make it sound like all the murdering was on one side and that the southern leaning Missourians were a bunch of sheep who just stood around until they got slaughtered. I have to admit, I have not studied the war in Missouri, but all I have heard was that it was pretty brutal on both sides. Are you saying the southerners were a bunch of pansies who didn't know how to protect themselves? Sure sounds like it. I always assumed that at least some of the southerners had a decent amount of manhood, but maybe I am wrong about that. Is that really the image you want to project?

Missouri was a mess before, during, and after the war. Not only was it brutal on both sides, there were bitter divisions even within the "sides."

Here is a good article on the public memory of the war in Missouri. It's essentially a victim complex.

The Border of Memory: The Divided Legacy of the Civil War | Civil War on the Western Border

If you look at any national map of the Civil War, you will see no contrast between Kansas and Missouri. Both are shaded alike as Union states. Were we to map the memory of the war, on the other hand, the border between them would be bright and stark. Kansas would still be Northern. But much of...

civilwaronthewesternborder.org

 

[JerryD]

As far as guerrilla war, and sympathy it is.

Initially after Camp Jackson, a call goes out for the MSG, the militia that becomes the nucleus of Missouri Confederates. It's hard to definitely tell its strength, but would think 40,000 is a realistic number.....out of a population a little over 1,000,000 in 1860. Of that 40,000 likely 20-25,000 entered Confederate service from MSG. As things were chaotic, some changed minds and returned home, as well Union realized chaotic situation and that the call for MSG was legal, so offered amnesty if they would quit and return home. During this period there was little guerrilla activity.

However during period, jawhawker outlaws raided from Kansas, out of state troops often treated slaveowners as disloyal without reason. The frustration of Union being unable to swiftly deal with MSG lead to punitive policies against population. So by spring of 1862 a population that had been Union leaning, started to have doubts, guerrillas became widespread, as support for them.

Study of situation here is odd, as authors often contradict themselves. The war was essentially inheritly political, Republican vrs Democrat more then north or south.

Ok, I think I understand. So you are saying there was no guerilla war prior to spring of 1862? And then after that is when the neighbor on neighbor violence started?

 

[archieclement]

Ok, I think I understand. So you are saying there was no guerilla war prior to spring of 1862? And then after that is when the neighbor on neighbor violence started

It's certainly when it becomes widespread as guerrilla.

Not sure what's meant by neighbor on neighbor. In 1861 the legal Missouri state militia would been Missouri State Guard.

There were Home Guard militias created independently or by Union authorities, and they could exist in same county and skirmish.

As part of the problem was occupation would treat whole families disloyal because of one family member, who likely wasn't even there anymore.

 

[archieclement]

An example of the family dynamic, a Union militia guy was ordered to burn one his neighbors houses. The neighbor had done nothing, one his sons had left and joined the MSG.

In the county history, he told his neighbor he was sorry and had to follow orders, and then offered to let the guys family stay in his home. The guy whose house he was burning basically told him he could go to hell

Don't win alot of hearts and minds burning people's houses for something someone else did..........

 

[archieclement]

Same with OP. Frank James joined MSG in 1861, then later joins guerrillas. This is just Frank in late 61 or early 62.

In 64 Union militia visit James farm and whip a 16 yr old Jesse, and dry hang his stepfather (lifting off ground with a noose, to let down before passing out of strangulation). At this point Jesse joins guerrillas as well afterwards.

Realisticly it's hard to justify or see how such heavy handed tactics would do anything but drive people away from Union sentiments.

Such clandestine punishments were random, there were no orders to whip Jesse or hang his father, on a different day or different militia the house might been looted or burned as well.

 

[gc45]

What has to be remembered is the the James-Younger gang started becoming folk heroes during the Radical Republican Reconstruction in Missouri. Former CS soldiers, their family members and even extended family members were purposely punished in taxes, property seizures, being disinfrancised, being unable to vote etc. The gang was seen by a good many as valiant knights errant by robbing Northern business interests i.e. Rail Roads and banks, thus avenging the wrongs committed by the Fletcher Government and Radical Republican faction of Republican Party

This post makes total sense to me. Reconstruction hurt the south, sticking up for these carpetbaggers who were nothing more than ligalized robbers is wrong. Whatever one might feel about the south, the people there, the 80,000 widows and such did not desearve the treatment they were subjected to after the war. JJ was a hero to many in Missiouri and still may be.
JJ should not be included in decussions of Clyde Barrow who was nothing more than a cowardly punk, good time robber and killer with no real purpose to his actions where JJ had pleanty of justification for that period in time to hurt the railroads, scalpers and carpetbaggers who both killed and stole from his people and friends throughout the south..JJ was a hero to many, perhaps still today after all. put yourself in his time period living in Missiouri after the war...I think some living in the now would have joined him..

 

[Borderruffian]

Same with OP. Frank James joined MSG in 1861, then later joins guerrillas. This is just Frank in late 61 or early 62.

In 64 Union militia visit James farm and whip a 16 yr old Jesse, and dry hang his stepfather (lifting off ground with a noose, to let down before passing out of strangulation). At this point Jesse joins guerrillas as well afterwards.

Realisticly it's hard to justify or see how such heavy handed tactics would do anything but drive people away from Union sentiments.

Such clandestine punishments were random, there were no orders to whip Jesse or hang his father, on a different day or different militia the house might been looted or burned as well.

And Doctor Samuels was never the same for the rest of his life due cut off air flow and possibly blood flow during that dry hanging. Jesse and the rest of the " Boys" had their own personal reasons.

 

[JerryD]

In 64 Union militia visit James farm and whip a 16 yr old Jesse, and dry hang his stepfather (lifting off ground with a noose, to let down before passing out of strangulation). At this point Jesse joins guerrillas as well afterwards.

Realisticly it's hard to justify or see how such heavy handed tactics would do anything but drive people away from Union sentiments.

Such clandestine punishments were random, there were no orders to whip Jesse or hang his father, on a different day or different militia the house might been looted or burned as well.

So this is basically why I wrote the post I did earlier. You are claiming that all this violence was one sided and was not prompted by anything? I am finding that hard to believe, especially with respect to the long history of violence in the area going back to Bleeding Kansas. It sounds like retribution for past acts. But again, I admit I dont know.