Jesse James

[huskerblitz]

I always wondered about bank robberies back in the day. If regular folks had money in a bank that was robbed were they reimbursed or did they just lose their money ?

Yes, they were out of luck. The FDIC didn't come around for a long time. That's why so many hid their money in mattresses or buried it in their yards.

 

[Kurtlg]

Yes, they were out of luck. The FDIC didn't come around for a long time. That's why so many hid their money in mattresses or buried it in their yards.

So when the gang robbed banks the regular folks suffered.

 

[Patrick H]

I saw an episode of a show with chef Andrew Zimmern or Gordon Ramsey I believe where he visited rural areas in Missouri to sample local cooking. At a couple of homes family legend was that the James Gang visited and they were fed without the owner asking any payment. After the gang left they found a gold coin under each plate. Family legend or truth ? Who knows.

I can accept this story as at least probable. During the war, these guys were often given food, shelter, and intelligence reports on the enemy by the citizens of their neighborhood. And they were cousins with nearly everyone in the border counties of Missouri. This incident probably happened at the farm of some of their kinfolk.

 

[huskerblitz]

So when the gang robbed banks the regular folks suffered.

Yep. So much for taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

I think that also explains why citizens were more than ready to engage them in Minnesota and Kansas after they hit those banks.

 

[JerryD]

Indeed perception is reality, certainly when noting how they were historically viewed.
Don't think image of Brown or James has changed much among general public.

The thing with James story is it wasnt ever one thing.

His family was victimized during the war

He's shot trying to surrender.....

During outlaw years, neither banks or Railroads were viewed all that favorably.

Then his family is victimized by Pinkertons.

And in the end, he's rather a martyr, as Bob and Charlie Ford go down in history as dirty little cowards. Which it's hard to paint them as anything else.

Gonna disagree with you abit, there (big surprise, right?). As others have noted, James is not viewed favorably in other parts of the country. Maybe in Missouri he is a local legend, but not so much here in Maryland, or Texas or Michigan, apparently. Also, if you look at movies that he is featured in, his image is no longer the robin hood he used to be portrayed at. Modern movie makers tend to want a grittier story, so you have him being presented more like he was in real life, and not the myth that grew up around him.

 

[archieclement]

Gonna disagree with you abit, there (big surprise, right?). As others have noted, James is not viewed favorably in other parts of the country. Maybe in Missouri he is a local legend, but not so much here in Maryland, or Texas or Michigan, apparently. Also, if you look at movies that he is featured in, his image is no longer the robin hood he used to be portrayed at. Modern movie makers tend to want a grittier story, so you have him being presented more like he was in real life, and not the myth that grew up around him.

That's why the songs are actually national, as are movies, and exactly which movie do you see portraying Pinkertons, law, or the Fords in a more favorable light then James?

But that goes to why the legend exists, it's not so much James was ever viewed a saint......but Union militia during occupation, carpetbaggers, Pinkertons assaulting his family, then ultimately the Fords and a governor conspiring to assassinate a citizen were quite often viewed worse...........

Realisticly most the events that contributed to him being viewed sympatheticly to become a folk hero.......are rather hard to spin positively.

Dry hanging old men and whipping young boys rather negative....shooting someone surrendering rather negative, tossing a bomb into a family's home in the middle of the night rather negative, conspiring in an assassination rather negative, shooting someone in the back rather negative.

Think it would be folly to not acknowledge the negatives are as much as of anything to what created a folk hero.

 

[JerryD]

That's why the songs are actually national, as are movies, and exactly which movie do you see portraying Pinkertons, law, or the Fords in a more favorable light then James?

But that goes to why the legend exists, it's not so much James was ever viewed a saint......but Union militia during occupation, carpetbaggers, Pinkertons assaulting his family, then ultimately the Fords and a governor conspiring to assassinate a citizen were quite often viewed worse...........

Did you ever see The Killing of Jesse James by the Coward Bill Ford? Despite the name, my memory is that its a sympathetic view of Ford, and is not complimentary of James at all.

The Northfield raid, while not addressing Ford or the Pinkertons, also puts James in a very unfavorable light. He was a real a**hole in that one.

 

[DanSBHawk]

Certainly not in the midwest, it's simply synonymous with crazy to most people. Though I suspect if a did a poll, it wouldn't have the same level of name recognition as well.

But the OP isn't Brown anyway, perhaps you should start a thread trying to make your claim of Brown as a widespread popular American folk hero.

You may like him, that doesn't make one a American Folk Hero

Like to me the OP has nothing to do with personal view at all, but simply looking how James has been viewed, popularity and enshrined in America culture for 150 years. When it comes to folk heroes, certainly Boone, Crockett, James are big three. Buffalo Bill might be close.

Just as if one has a negative view of James, it certainly doesn't change how American culture has embraced him as a popular figure for 150 years.

You're living in the past. Very few people care about Boone, Crockett, James, or Buffalo Bill anymore. John Brown is certainly looked on as crazy. But he seems to have gotten more attention lately than any of those you mentioned.

 

[archieclement]

Did you ever see The Killing of Jesse James by the Coward Bill Ford? Despite the name, my memory is that its a sympathetic view of Ford, and is not complimentary of James at all.

The Northfield raid, while not addressing Ford or the Pinkertons, also puts James in a very unfavorable light. He was a real a**hole in that one.

Certainly, have no idea how you think it was sympathetic to Ford at all.

It showed him as a weird hero worshipper who seeked "fame" and was rightly viewed in the light of JWB for a backshooting assassination.

And the hero he worshipped and obsessed.......was actually JJ. The movie supports JJ as a hero of the era, as Bob had obsessed over dime novels of him actually demonstrating his fame and popularity in print.

 

[archieclement]

You're living in the past. Very few people care about Boone, Crockett, James, or Buffalo Bill anymore. John Brown is certainly looked on as crazy. But he seems to have gotten more attention lately than any of those you mentioned.

They are certainly names most often referred to as American folk heros.

People don't have to care about folk heros, yet they recognise who they were.......

 

[JerryD]

Certainly, have no idea how you think it was sympathetic to Ford at all.

It showed him as a weird hero worshipper who seeked "fame" and was rightly viewed in the light of JWB.

Its been awhile since I saw, and he certainly was a hero worshipper, but I also remember James mocking and abusing him and not being a sympathetic character at all. Certainly it had none of the robin hood myth. He was a killer, plain and simple, and Ford, who did the right thing, was abused for it. For that reason he was treated sympathetically. I do remember the title was meant to be taken as not to be taken literally.

This from Wikipedia sums up current public perception pretty well, I think (despite it being from Wiki): "Jesse James remains a controversial symbol, one who can always be reinterpreted in various ways according to cultural tensions and needs. Some of the neo-Confederate movement regard him as a hero.[60][75][76] However, renewed cultural battles over the place of the Civil War in American history have replaced the long-standing interpretation of James as a Western frontier hero."

I think the way he is identified with the Confederacy, and the well known re-assessment going on about Confederates, is in large part responsible for the changing perception of him to a more negative one, and someone who should not be celebrated.

As I noted earlier about Brown, it seem the opposite is happening with Brown. Although to my way of thinking he is also someone who should not be celebrated, despite his intentions.

 

[archieclement]

Its been awhile since I saw, and he certainly was a hero worshipper, but I also remember James mocking and abusing him and not being a sympathetic character at all. Certainly it had none of the robin hood myth. He was a killer, plain and simple, and Ford, who did the right thing, was abused for it. For that reason he was treated sympathetically. I do remember the title was meant to be taken as not to be taken literally.

This from Wikipedia sums up current public perception pretty well, I think (despite it being from Wiki): "Jesse James remains a controversial symbol, one who can always be reinterpreted in various ways according to cultural tensions and needs. Some of the neo-Confederate movement regard him as a hero.[60][75][76] However, renewed cultural battles over the place of the Civil War in American history have replaced the long-standing interpretation of James as a Western frontier hero."

I think the way he is identified with the Confederacy, and the well known re-assessment going on about Confederates, is in large part responsible for the changing perception of him to a more negative one, and someone who should not be celebrated.

As I noted earlier about Brown, it seem the opposite is happening with Brown. Although to my way of thinking he is also someone who should not be celebrated, despite his intentions.

Again I don't see either view changing among general public, which is what determines folk hero. Not academia or modern political agendas to reinterpret, but actually the general publics view.

Folk heros are because how the average people view/viewed them.

Certainly if we are talking historically, it's not just today, but how they've been viewed for 150 years.

 

[A. Roy]

Did you ever see The Killing of Jesse James by the Coward Bill Ford? Despite the name, my memory is that its a sympathetic view of Ford, and is not complimentary of James at all.

I don't think I saw this movie, but I did read the book it was based on. It's been a while so details have faded. As I remember it, the author asserts that Ford assassinated James at the behest of the Missouri governor and received a reward. I don't remember the book being particularly sympathetic about Robert Ford or Jesse James. I do remember the sad reaction of James's wife on finding her husband shot in the parlor. I guess overall I would have to say the world was a better place without James in it. However, even if he was a pretty bad guy, there's something horrific about killing a man in his own home in the presence of his family.
ARB

 

[archieclement]

I don't think I saw this movie, but I did read the book it was based on. It's been a while so details have faded. As I remember it, the author asserts that Ford assassinated James at the behest of the Missouri governor and received a reward. I don't remember the book being particularly sympathetic about Robert Ford or Jesse James. I do remember the sad reaction of James's wife on finding her husband shot in the parlor. I guess overall I would have to say the world was a better place without James in it. However, even if he was a pretty bad guy, there's something horrific about killing a man in his own home in the presence of his family.
ARB

It tells alot about the angle the movie went in Brad Pitt was JJ

You don't go with one the biggest name "hunk" actors if really wish to protray someone negatively.

The movie has alot psychobabble to it, portraying JJ toying with Ford, and as if had some fatalistic view as if was ready to die. Which seems based on just fiction. It does the same psychobabble with Ford, it was entertaining tho, I enjoy the movie.

But the psyhobabble presentations don't seem based on anything factual.

 

[JerryD]

Again I don't see either view changing among general public, which is what determines folk hero. Not academia or modern political agendas to reinterpret, but actually the general publics view.

Folk heros are because how the average people view/viewed them.

Certainly if we are talking historically, it's not just today, but how they've been viewed for 150 years.

No, I am talking today. And you cross your arms and close your eyes all you want, but I think I have provided more than enough info that modern perceptions have moved away from your 1950's era romantic vision that he is viewed in America as a hero like Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett.

 

[JerryD]

It tells alot about the angle the movie went in Brad Pitt was JJ

You don't go with one the biggest name "hunk" actors if really wish to protray someone negatively.

The movie has alot psychobabble to it, portraying JJ toying with Ford, and as if had some fatalistic view as if was ready to die. Which seems based on just fiction. It does the same psychobabble with Ford, it was entertaining tho, I enjoy the movie.

But the psyhobabble presentations don't seem based on anything factual.

If I remember correctly, there also seemed to hinted that James goaded Ford into killing him. That he made a point to remove his gun before turning his back to him. But like I said, its been a long time since I saw it.

 

[Kurtlg]

No, I am talking today. And you cross your arms and close your eyes all you want, but I think I have provided more than enough info that modern perceptions have moved away from your 1950's era romantic vision that he is viewed in America as a hero like Daniel Boone or Davey Crockett.

I would agree but there was the one season TV show called The Legend of Jesse James from 1965 to 1966. It starred Chris Jones as Jesse and Allen Case as Frank. I remember the theme about gold hungry guns. As I recall it portrayed him in a more positive way.

 

[Kurtlg]

And of course there was the earlier movie "Jesse James meets Frankenstein's Daughter ".

 

[JerryD]

And of course there was the earlier movie "Jesse James meets Frankenstein's Daughter ".

Can't be as good as Abbott And Costello meet Frankenstein.

 

[Kurtlg]

Can't be as good as Abbott And Costello meet Frankenstein.

Now that was a good one .