Initials "Pinned" into Stock

[Package4]

I don't have others pics available at the moment (am not at home), but I just downloaded the following pics that I had previously posted in another thread ( https://civilwartalk.com/threads/stamped-double-crowns-on-1853-enfield.156853/#post-2027072 ). If you need a different angle, just let me know and I'll snap a pic tonight for you.

Notice that the first two pics are with the ugly varnish, and the third one after removing the varnish. If you look carefully, a "2" magically appears below one of the crowns after removing the thick varnish. I can't make out what lies below the other crown...best-guesses are welcome!

The 1st pic doesn't show the full extent of it, but there are a lot of gouges (near and above the top of the pic) that look a lot like the gouges you'd get from lying your gun on a rocky surface (the ground or a stone wall) while shooting or while throwing yourself to the ground or even dropping it.

Some people suggested that removing the varnish would hurt the collectability of my Enfield. But it wasn't original military varnish, it was thick and shiny, and it's been hiding "secrets" below the surface of it....so I think it is now more collectible now that the varnish has been removed, and in any case, it is certainly more original looking (after applying some "Kramer's Best"). Bottom line = I am prouder of it now than before.
View attachment 350408View attachment 350409View attachment 350410

Looks like a Sinclair, Hamilton & Company mark that was not completed or worn, you may very well have a Southern piece. I'll look at your other thread.

 

[Package4]

I don't have others pics available at the moment (am not at home), but I just downloaded the following pics that I had previously posted in another thread ( https://civilwartalk.com/threads/stamped-double-crowns-on-1853-enfield.156853/#post-2027072 ). If you need a different angle, just let me know and I'll snap a pic tonight for you.

Notice that the first two pics are with the ugly varnish, and the third one after removing the varnish. If you look carefully, a "2" magically appears below one of the crowns after removing the thick varnish. I can't make out what lies below the other crown...best-guesses are welcome!

The 1st pic doesn't show the full extent of it, but there are a lot of gouges (near and above the top of the pic) that look a lot like the gouges you'd get from lying your gun on a rocky surface (the ground or a stone wall) while shooting or while throwing yourself to the ground or even dropping it.

Some people suggested that removing the varnish would hurt the collectability of my Enfield. But it wasn't original military varnish, it was thick and shiny, and it's been hiding "secrets" below the surface of it....so I think it is now more collectible now that the varnish has been removed, and in any case, it is certainly more original looking (after applying some "Kramer's Best"). Bottom line = I am prouder of it now than before.
View attachment 350408View attachment 350409View attachment 350410

Paging @Lanyard Puller to decipher the marks, I keep seeing an R 2, but the R is most likely the double stamp of the lower crown.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Looks like a Sinclair, Hamilton & Company mark that was not completed or worn, you may very well have a Southern piece. I'll look at your other thread.

Really? I'd love to see that, but I just can't make anything out beneath the second crown. What makes you think it would be? Any chance you can trace what you see on the picture using something like Photoshop?

If you look at the other post, some other folks posted pics of crowns that had other numbers/letters below the crown (Crown/9, Crown/RH).​

I had tracked down information re some of the other markings on my 1853 Enfield that suggested possible Confederate provenance but nothing definitive... gotta dig up my notes (I'll post that information tonight/tomorrow).

 

[Package4]

Really? I'd love to see that, but I just can't make anything out beneath the second crown. What makes you think it would be? Any chance you can trace what you see on the picture using something like Photoshop?

If you look at the other post, some other folks posted pics of crowns that had other numbers/letters below the crown (Crown/9, Crown/RH).

I had tracked down information re some of the other markings on my 1853 Enfield that suggested possible Confederate provenance but nothing definitive... gotta dig up my notes (I'll post that information tonight/tomorrow).

Well without question @Lanyard Puller is the individual who can put this mystery to bed, if anyone can.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Well without question @Lanyard Puller is the individual who can put this mystery to bed, if anyone can.

As I recall, he told me that there is no information available regarding what the Crown/2 means. Unfortunately, those damned Brits (and every other arms manufacturer of the era) weren't considerate enough to think about us poor collectors 150 years later trying to decipher markings....how inconsiderate!

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

So here is the "Confederate provenance" facts...you be the judge if it is or isn't. The inside of the lockplate is stamped "W&CS". According to the English Connection (page 54), C.W. James and W&C Scott (both from Birmingham) were likely the most prolific suppliers to the Confederacy. Sinclair and Hamilton set up contracts with them for 30,000 Enfields in 1861 and 1862 (pg 143 of English Connection). My lock is dated 1862.

The "W.H" stamped beneath the trigger tang (and on the left side of the stock...another marking that became evident after removing the varnish) was a stock maker that was associated with Confederate Enfields (page 105 of English Connection).

The "T&CG" on my bayonet spring was also associated with Confederate Enfileds (pg 38 of English Connection).

I have a "James" very very faintly seen in the ramrod channel, not that far from an easily visible "Sutton". "James" might be associated with C.W. James. So, "James" may be the overall gun manufacturer, and "Sutton" may be the person that worked on the stock.

I have many other markings on the barrel, of which I have no information on.

I think there's a lot of evidence but nothing absolutely definitive.....I lack the "magic bullet" markings like JS/Anchor, SHC, etc. So you be the judge on what you want to believe.

Personally, I am proud of my Enfield no matter what. It clearly saw hard use, including the cracked stock (possibly from hand to hand combat as it cracked open someone's skull??? who knows.....). It's a piece of history, and you can feel that history whenever you pick it up.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

I think there's a lot of evidence but nothing absolutely definitive.....I lack the "magic bullet" markings like JS/Anchor, SHC, etc. So you be the judge on what you want to believe.

Personally, I am proud of my Enfield no matter what. It clearly saw hard use, including the cracked stock (possibly from hand to hand combat as it cracked open someone's skull??? who knows.....). It's a piece of history, and you can feel that history whenever you pick it up.

 

[Package4]

As I recall, he told me that there is no information available regarding what the Crown/2 means. Unfortunately, those ****ed Brits (and every other arms manufacturer of the era) weren't considerate enough to think about us poor collectors 150 years later trying to decipher markings....how inconsiderate!

Spoke to him at length yesterday and he said same, I am going to hit Tim Prince to see what he says. I was hoping to see the whole gang at the Baltimore show next week, but that has been cancelled due to COVID-19 outbreak. No more than 250 individuals are allowed to gather in Baltimore and many areas joining the city are following suit.

Stay tuned and I'll let you know what Tim says as soon as he replies.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Spoke to him at length yesterday and he said same, I am going to hit Tim Prince to see what he says. I was hoping to see the whole gang at the Baltimore show next week, but that has been cancelled due to COVID-19 outbreak. No more than 250 individuals are allowed to gather in Baltimore and many areas joining the city are following suit.

Stay tuned and I'll let you know what Tim says as soon as he replies.

Oh hey, thanks for checking into this with those guys....I certainly wasn't expecting that.

Cancellation of Baltimore Show is reeeeeaaaaallllllllyyyyyy disappointing for a lot of people. I had hoped they would postpone it to the Fall, rather than cancelling it completely and waiting until March 2021 for the next show. My son and I had been really looking forward to it...can't tell you how many times we had talked about the Show in the past two months....I am now going to lie down in the fetal position for a while.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Oh, and I thought I should point out....the "JAMES" in the ramrod channel is very difficult to read. The "ES" can be clearly identified, but the rest of it can't. Maybe it isn't "JAMES"? Anyone wanna take a look and offer their opinions on what the letters are? Not even I can mess up reading the "J SUTTON"...that is very, very clear to read, thankfully.

I don't have one (yet), but do UV flashlights help with reading such markings? Is there a particular UV flashlight people would recommend?

 

[Package4]

Oh, and I thought I should point out....the "JAMES" in the ramrod channel is very difficult to read. The "ES" can be clearly identified, but the rest of it can't. Maybe it isn't "JAMES"? Anyone wanna take a look and offer their opinions on what the letters are? Not even I can mess up reading the "J SUTTON"...that is very, very clear to read, thankfully.

I don't have one (yet), but do UV flashlights help with reading such markings? Is there a particular UV flashlight people would recommend?

A little talcum powder usually helps and doesn't damage anything

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

A little talcum powder usually helps and doesn't damage anything

Good suggestion, I'll give that a try and report back.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Talcum didn't work. Not enough of an indent to the lettering. I will have to pin my hopes on UV light, but I gotta buy a UV flashlight first.

 

[Package4]

Spoke to him at length yesterday and he said same, I am going to hit Tim Prince to see what he says. I was hoping to see the whole gang at the Baltimore show next week, but that has been cancelled due to COVID-19 outbreak. No more than 250 individuals are allowed to gather in Baltimore and many areas joining the city are following suit.

Stay tuned and I'll let you know what Tim says as soon as he replies.

Tim, just got back to me and while he can not discern the exact maker, he did say that the 2 most likely stands for "2nd Quality"; others he has seen with the 2 were 2nd quality.

All else seems to indicate Confederate purchase, but nothing is certain without maker mark.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Tim, just got back to me and while he can not discern the exact maker, he did say that the 2 most likely stands for "2nd Quality"; others he has seen with the 2 were 2nd quality.

All else seems to indicate Confederate purchase, but nothing is certain without maker mark.

Thanks for checking. Much appreciated.

 

[Package4]

Thanks for checking. Much appreciated.

Sorry could not have had better news, but at least you know a little bit more about the piece...….

 

[Package4]

So here is the "Confederate provenance" facts...you be the judge if it is or isn't. The inside of the lockplate is stamped "W&CS". According to the English Connection (page 54), C.W. James and W&C Scott (both from Birmingham) were likely the most prolific suppliers to the Confederacy. Sinclair and Hamilton set up contracts with them for 30,000 Enfields in 1861 and 1862 (pg 143 of English Connection). My lock is dated 1862.

View attachment 350452



The "W.H" stamped beneath the trigger tang (and on the left side of the stock...another marking that became evident after removing the varnish) was a stock maker that was associated with Confederate Enfields (page 105 of English Connection).

View attachment 350453



The "T&CG" on my bayonet spring was also associated with Confederate Enfileds (pg 38 of English Connection).

View attachment 350454


I have a "James" very very faintly seen in the ramrod channel, not that far from an easily visible "Sutton". "James" might be associated with C.W. James. So, "James" may be the overall gun manufacturer, and "Sutton" may be the person that worked on the stock.View attachment 350455


I have many other markings on the barrel, of which I have no information on.
View attachment 350456View attachment 350459View attachment 350461

I think there's a lot of evidence but nothing absolutely definitive.....I lack the "magic bullet" markings like JS/Anchor, SHC, etc. So you be the judge on what you want to believe.

Personally, I am proud of my Enfield no matter what. It clearly saw hard use, including the cracked stock (possibly from hand to hand combat as it cracked open someone's skull??? who knows.....). It's a piece of history, and you can feel that history whenever you pick it up.

Possibly, since it appears to be second quality, maybe the stock was not sufficiently seasoned, due to demand and cracked during firing.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Possibly, since it appears to be second quality, maybe the stock was not sufficiently seasoned, due to demand and cracked during firing.

Having looked over my Enfield carefully many times, there is nothing obvious to suggest it was second quality. The stock did split on the opposite side of the lock, but it seems to be from something more severe than simply firing it (somebody may have swung it like a club in hand-to-hand combat????…..maybe?). The lock is excellent, crisp, strong. Who knows what the issue may have been...we'll never know...I love my Enfield just the same. I feel very privileged to own one.

 

[Package4]

Having looked over my Enfield carefully many times, there is nothing obvious to suggest it was second quality. The stock did split on the opposite side of the lock, but it seems to be from something more severe than simply firing it (somebody may have swung it like a club in hand-to-hand combat????…..maybe?). The lock is excellent, crisp, strong. Who knows what the issue may have been...we'll never know...I love my Enfield just the same. I feel very privileged to own one.

Keep in mind that second quality doesn't mean much, some military match rifles, Whitworths had "2nd Quality" marked on the trigger guard tang. These were arms that did not have the proper finish to the stock, but were perfectly functional pieces, keep in mind that it is thought that all of these went South. I believe our own @Lanyard Puller has one of these.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

There are many different inspector's stamps with a crown over top of some letters or numbers, and they are to identify the viewer who inspected the arm, such as crown over SHC for Sinclair Hamilton, crown over B for Barnett, crown over FP for Francis Preston, but I've never heard such a mark was ever used to mark a second quality enfield.
One question is whether that is really a 2 on its side, or whether that bottom base of the two is just grain in the wood, and the mark is something else.