Initials "Pinned" into Stock

[ConfederateCanuck]

Earlier this summer when I was repairing the stock on my P1853 Enfield, I discovered the initials "LW" on the left side of the stock (see pictures) as I cleaned off some old non-military varnish. It appears the initials were made using a pin pressed into the wood. The initials are on the left side of the stock, opposite the lock plate, just behind the forward lock plate screw/washer.

We have all seen examples of initials carved into the wood, or scratched into the metal, etc. How common would "pinned" initials be? Has anyone else seen something similar? Would the soldiers have used a cap badge pin or a nipple pick to do that? I also wonder how many thousands of soldiers had the initials LW...its gotta be at least several thousand I would think.

A

 

[UCVRelics]

Good luck with that one as I spent well over 100 hours trying to find the name of a CS cav trooper that had the initials carved in the stock of a rare Cook & Brothers carbine I got from a lady here in Alabama. Even with the serial falling into the Alabama contract and the names of all her family it turned out to be a dead end.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Oh I'm not even going to try....like I said, there has to be thousands with LW initials. And you have proven that by displaying your own LW initialed gun. It didn't take long to find one, eh?!

 

[UCVRelics]

Oh I'm not even going to try....like I said, there has to be thousands with LW initials. And you have proven that by displaying your own LW initialed gun. It didn't take long to find one, eh?!

No it was LWE so I thought it would be EZ as he was from Alabama and in the cavalry but DEAD END. I was hopeing to find that he rode with Forrest or Wheeler but This one is now in the LP collection

 

[drm2m]

A closer view of the stock marking---I have no idea what it is.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

This looks like a safer way to inscribe initials compared to slicing with a sharp knife as you cradle that stock across your lap, eh?
Using brad nails (that is, nails with no real head, just a slight swell at the top) to make decorative patterns in wood is a old time craft. I'm talking about driving short nails and leaving them into the wood.
I've seen a few civil war era muskets with real fancy designs, such as a large American Eagle.
Another interesting way to decorate or personalize is the use of red letter sealing wax melted into carvings in the wood.
Here is a link to a webpage at the Springfield Armory showing personalized weapons which includes a couple with red sealing wax, and also a really flashy inscription made with brass shoe nails. Take a look!

PERSONALIZED WEAPONS - Springfield Armory National Historic Site (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

 

[Peter Stines]

I had an original Harpers Ferry Model 1842 that had a small cross carved into the butt stock on the left side. Not very big and not too deep but it was NOT a scratch or dent. A soldier could easily mark wood with a common sewing needle. If he had a "house wife" or sewing kit for repairing his clothing, needles would have been a "must have". A sewing awl could do the job as well as a small "wire" nail and even the tip of a small pocket or pen knife. There is debate about marking up the stock since that gun was "government property" but it still happened. IMO the main concern was preventing serious defacing and/or damage to the gun. I've seen rifles and muskets with the brass infantry insignia inlet into the stock. I know of a sawed off percussion double with documented Confederate use that has "My Beloved Texas" scratched into the wood. Stars. flags, names, units were added. This was not super common, but it DID exist.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Peter:

I am would think that soldiers who took time to carefully clean their weapons would want to be able to pick that weapon from those stacked ready for use.

We use red ribbons on handles of our luggage to help us select our own bags - I wonder if soldiers used some similar sort of marker on theirs aside form carving names or initials!

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Peter:

I am would think that soldiers who took time to carefully clean their weapons would want to be able to pick that weapon from those stacked ready for use.

We use red ribbons on handles of our luggage to help us select our own bags - I wonder if soldiers used some similar sort of marker on theirs aside form carving names or initials!

I had been thinking the same thing. The pinned initials would not be as obvious to a prickly Sargeant looking to intimidate privates with charges of "defacing government property".

 

[Package4]

Peter:

I am would think that soldiers who took time to carefully clean their weapons would want to be able to pick that weapon from those stacked ready for use.

We use red ribbons on handles of our luggage to help us select our own bags - I wonder if soldiers used some similar sort of marker on theirs aside form carving names or initials!
[/QUOT
Federal equipment was not to be marked and I would estimate that this held true for the most part. Inspections were not always by individuals in your company or even regiment and if defaced the soldier and company commander were charged. Slings, belts, cartridge boxes were often marked on the obverse, or flap. Most Federal pieces that show markings could very well be post war, soldiers were allowed to purchase the weapons upon discharge. Many more came from surplus sales such as Bannerman's and Stokes Kirk.

There are exceptions, but those are extremely rare.

Confederate pieces were routinely marked, many times with multiple sets of markings.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Yes, of course that was the rule - no marking federal property. Lots of rules. No dozing on duty. No back talk to your superiors. No lagging behind on march. No collecting chickens for supper along the march. No marking of federal equipment. But I bet that if you had to stack your musket with other muskets, and you took good care of your musket, cleaning out the nipple so it would fire when you capped it and pulled the trigger, and you wondered if one of your messmates was a bit lax in his cleaning responsibilities, I bet you would want to be able to identify your own arm when it came time to unstack it. I know I would!
Maybe a red ribbon tied to the triggerguard would do it. Or, maybe initials pin-pricked into the wood, not too visible or obvious, but still readable, would be a good way to identify one's own musket. These small pinpricks would not be too obvious, certainly less than initials carved into the wood, wouldn't they?

Now, you sure correct that many items were marked once taken home, and we can't now know whether markings were done during time of use or later.

But these pin pricked letters don't stand out, and I would think a person wanting to emblaze his initials or name on an item as a memento or trophy would want a bold clear itdentification, not weak as is this - remember the owner didn't see these until he was concentrating on that area as he was preparing to repair a crack.

 

[Package4]

Yes, of course that was the rule - no marking federal property. Lots of rules. No dozing on duty. No back talk to your superiors. No lagging behind on march. No collecting chickens for supper along the march. No marking of federal equipment. But I bet that if you had to stack your musket with other muskets, and you took good care of your musket, cleaning out the nipple so it would fire when you capped it and pulled the trigger, and you wondered if one of your messmates was a bit lax in his cleaning responsibilities, I bet you would want to be able to identify your own arm when it came time to unstack it. I know I would!
Maybe a red ribbon tied to the triggerguard would do it. Or, maybe initials pin-pricked into the wood, not too visible or obvious, but still readable, would be a good way to identify one's own musket. These small pinpricks would not be too obvious, certainly less than initials carved into the wood, wouldn't they?

Now, you sure correct that many items were marked once taken home, and we can't now know whether markings were done during time of use or later.

But these pin pricked letters don't stand out, and I would think a person wanting to emblaze his initials or name on an item as a memento or trophy would want a bold clear itdentification, not weak as is this - remember the owner didn't see these until he was concentrating on that area as he was preparing to repair a crack.

Much easier to mark the sling and less expensive if written up. The piece in the OP could very well be Southern used, keep in mind that Enfields were varnished and the marking would stand out much more when originally done.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

The varnish was ugly, and clearly applied after the pinpricks. You couldnt see them at all under the varnish. Later when i have a moment i will post pics of the varnished and unvarnished stock.

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

 

[Package4]

The varnish was ugly, and clearly applied after the pinpricks. You couldnt see them at all under the varnish. Later when i have a moment i will post pics of the varnished and unvarnished stock.

No, what I am saying is that the pinning would be more visible through the original varnished finish, than currently or covered with a thick post war varnish. I read somewhere that returns showed that fewer than 10% of US soldiers purchased their arms upon discharge, if this is true, I believe that most marked weapons were surplus purchased or Southern used.

i will try and find that source.

 

[Package4]

Yes, of course that was the rule - no marking federal property. Lots of rules. No dozing on duty. No back talk to your superiors. No lagging behind on march. No collecting chickens for supper along the march. No marking of federal equipment. But I bet that if you had to stack your musket with other muskets, and you took good care of your musket, cleaning out the nipple so it would fire when you capped it and pulled the trigger, and you wondered if one of your messmates was a bit lax in his cleaning responsibilities, I bet you would want to be able to identify your own arm when it came time to unstack it. I know I would!
Maybe a red ribbon tied to the triggerguard would do it. Or, maybe initials pin-pricked into the wood, not too visible or obvious, but still readable, would be a good way to identify one's own musket. These small pinpricks would not be too obvious, certainly less than initials carved into the wood, wouldn't they?

Now, you sure correct that many items were marked once taken home, and we can't now know whether markings were done during time of use or later.

But these pin pricked letters don't stand out, and I would think a person wanting to emblaze his initials or name on an item as a memento or trophy would want a bold clear itdentification, not weak as is this - remember the owner didn't see these until he was concentrating on that area as he was preparing to repair a crack.

This isn't like re-enacting where you have the levity of cleaning or not, your life and others in your rank may depend upon a clean, firing weapon. Read diaries where the only thing the soldiers paid real attention to were their arms. They had additional incentive from corporals and sergeant of the rank. There was more down time than not and it was filled with drill, inspection and arms cleaning. Barrels were burnished with campfire ashes and supplied emery cloth, were there exceptions, of course, but I would speculate that they were corrected very quickly.

Diaries speak more often than not about officers who were martinets, trying to prove something, whether it was company, regimental or staff.

The perception of the Union army as a citizen army/mob where soldiers were allowed to do as they pleased, could not be further from the truth. I suspect a lot of this emanates from the re-enactment community.

 

[Package4]

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Would you please show pictures of the trigger guard and wood before the butt plate?

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Would you please show pictures of the trigger guard and wood before the butt plate?

I don't have others pics available at the moment (am not at home), but I just downloaded the following pics that I had previously posted in another thread ( https://civilwartalk.com/threads/stamped-double-crowns-on-1853-enfield.156853/#post-2027072 ). If you need a different angle, just let me know and I'll snap a pic tonight for you.

Notice that the first two pics are with the ugly varnish, and the third one after removing the varnish. If you look carefully, a "2" magically appears below one of the crowns after removing the thick varnish. I can't make out what lies below the other crown...best-guesses are welcome!

The 1st pic doesn't show the full extent of it, but there are a lot of gouges (near and above the top of the pic) that look a lot like the gouges you'd get from lying your gun on a rocky surface (the ground or a stone wall) while shooting or while throwing yourself to the ground or even dropping it.

Some people suggested that removing the varnish would hurt the collectability of my Enfield. But it wasn't original military varnish, it was thick and shiny, and it's been hiding "secrets" below the surface of it....so I think it is now more collectible now that the varnish has been removed, and in any case, it is certainly more original looking (after applying some "Kramer's Best"). Bottom line = I am prouder of it now than before.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

This isn't like re-enacting where you have the levity of cleaning or not, your life and others in your rank may depend upon a clean, firing weapon. Read diaries where the only thing the soldiers paid real attention to were their arms. They had additional incentive from corporals and sergeant of the rank. There was more down time than not and it was filled with drill, inspection and arms cleaning. Barrels were burnished with campfire ashes and supplied emery cloth, were there exceptions, of course, but I would speculate that they were corrected very quickly.

Diaries speak more often than not about officers who were martinets, trying to prove something, whether it was company, regimental or staff.

The perception of the Union army as a citizen army/mob where soldiers were allowed to do as they pleased, could not be further from the truth. I suspect a lot of this emanates from the re-enactment community.

In my case, this belief comes from me being a finish trim carpenter at an earlier stage in my life where I by gosh kept my hand tools just as I wanted them, and I would not easily share, say, my wood chisel with someone else. I had the edge just the angle and just the sharpness I wanted, and even if another worker told me their chisel had been maintained to the same standards, I wanted my own.

I bet I would feel the same way about my musket if I were a soldier!

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

In my case, this belief comes from me being a finish trim carpenter at an earlier stage in my life where I by gosh kept my hand tools just as I wanted them, and I would not easily share, say, my wood chisel with someone else. I had the edge just the angle and just the sharpness I wanted, and even if another worker told me their chisel had been maintained to the same standards, I wanted my own.

I bet I would feel the same way about my musket if I were a soldier!

I agree with you. If my life depended on my gun, I'd keep it in the best shape I could...and I wouldn't trust the gun that "numb nuts" over there cleaned/maintained. I'd want to be able to identify my own gun, somehow.