Info needed on artillery sword

[kevikens]

I am looking at a store dealer who has what appears to be an 1835 US artillery sword from Ames. It seems to be an original and the markings look proper. It is not a French "cabbage chopper" with the rings handle but has the US fish scales handle. My concern is on the scabbard, at the point or drag are the capital letters MS. What do they stand for Massachusetts, Mississippi or something else? Thanks. By the way he wants $850 for it.

 

[redbob]

The only time that I have seen MS attached to a sword, it stood for Medical Staff.

 

[UCVRelics]

I am looking at a store dealer who has what appears to be an 1835 US artillery sword from Ames. It seems to be an original and the markings look proper. It is not a French "cabbage chopper" with the rings handle but has the US fish scales handle. My concern is on the scabbard, at the point or drag are the capital letters MS. What do they stand for Massachusetts, Mississippi or something else? Thanks. By the way he wants $850 for it.

I have several in my collection. If you post some photos I can take a look. Is the blade marked with the Eagle over United States and the NP Ames Springfield Mass? The ones I have seen that are repops have a 1842 date.

 

[redbob]

In Hamilton's The Ames Sword Company 1829-1935, crossguards and scabbard tips are marked with Massachusetts Volunteer Militia markings such as M3 or M5 showing what Division they belonged to. The blades will bear the date 1839 and the hilts will be marked MS/MPL/WS showing that they were commonwealth weapons and who they were inspected by.

 

[kevikens]

On this one the date is 1835. My primary question is the MS at the tip pf the scabbard. Thanks for the info thus far.

The only time that I have seen MS attached to a sword, it stood for Medical Service.

I sure hope it was not used by surgeons for amputations.

 

[James N.]

Be EXTREMELY careful about buying one of these! There are almost PERFECT fakes of these out there - the best way to spot them is the scabbard which doesn't have the proper "age" to the leather. IF you know what the markings are supposed to look like, that can be a giveaway too: The eagle on the pommel is "cartoony" looking, likely because the example the Chinese used was too worn to show the proper detail; and the markings (U S, inspector's initials, and date) on the blade appear to have all been on a single stamp rather than being separately applied. The latter is obvious because the markings will all be of identical depth and perfectly aligned on the left; in reality they varied and were more usually unevenly aligned with each other.

 

[UCVRelics]

Be EXTREMELY careful about buying one of these! There are almost PERFECT fakes of these out there - the best way to spot them is the scabbard which doesn't have the proper "age" to the leather.

I agree. another way to tell on the leather is simple, the smell. That old musty leather smell is not present on the repops. I guess the Chinese haven't figured out how to knock off the smell.

 

[James N.]

I agree. another way to tell on the leather is simple, the smell. That old musty leather smell is not present on the repops. I guess the Chinese haven't figured out how to knock off the smell.

Yes; if the scabbard is missing altogether it might be very hard for a relative novice to tell the difference in just the sword itself.

 

[UCVRelics]

Yes it is. The ones I repops I have seen were as you said very poorly done in the markings and the eagle, another way is the handle as the repops all seem to have hollow handles and if I remember right had 1842 dates on them but I would guess there would be others with different dates.

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

You may want to check out this thread on the Sword Forum International site: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?117808-M1832-Foot-Artillery-Genuine-or-Repro

It goes into considerable detail about the "MS" (Massachusetts)-marked foot artillery swords and scabbards.

 

[Jobe Holiday]

The handles on the original Artillery Short Swords are also hollow cast.
J.

 

[kevikens]

You may want to check out this thread on the Sword Forum International site: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?117808-M1832-Foot-Artillery-Genuine-or-Repro

It goes into considerable detail about the "MS" (Massachusetts)-marked foot artillery swords and scabbards.

Thanks. will do.

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

Is this by chance the sword you saw? It's dated 1835 and has an "MS"-marked scabbard.

 

[kevikens]

It looks exactly like it, same date and same MS. Do you know what the MS stands for and why it is on the scabbard but not the sword?

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

It stands for Massachusetts. I believe this was originally paired with an 1839-dated sword which was also marked "MS" on the obverse crossbar. Below are pictures of one from my collection. I believe 1839 was the only year Massachusetts so marked its swords. Having the scabbards switched is nothing unusual on swords of this period. I don't think I have ever seen a M1861 Navy cutlass with the same serial number on both the sword and scabbard. Unfortunately, I don't have an "MS"-marked scabbard for my sword.

The 1835 of which I posted photos above is currently listed on eBay. I am tempted to bid on it just to get the scabbard, and may do so if the price doesn't go too high. I believe both the sword and scabbard are original, although as a number of forum members have warned, there are a lot of good fakes out there, particularly of the "MS"-marked variety.

 

[kevikens]

I am still looking but the price of $850, and he won't budge off of that, seems a bit high. Thanks for that info.

 

[Richard E. Schenk]

I suspect it may be literally the same sword as on eBay - your brick-and-mortar dealer may have listed it online as well as trying to sell it in his store. This is the second time around for it. Last time it got to about $600, but didn't sell because it didn't meet the owner's reserve price. If the reserve is $850, it probably won't sell this time either.

 

[Package4]

I suspect it may be literally the same sword as on eBay - your brick-and-mortar dealer may have listed it online as well as trying to sell it in his store. This is the second time around for it. Last time it got to about $600, but didn't sell because it didn't meet the owner's reserve price. If the reserve is $850, it probably won't sell this time either.

He has it up with no reserve, it's at $450 right now and it looks good to me, proper eagle, stamping done separately and the proper rivets. Scabbard looks right as well, though not original to the sword as it is marked MS for Mass. and the sword is not.