How would you rate Rosecrans?

How do you rate Rosecrans?

  • on a scale of one to 10 10 being the best

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Rosecrans was the best Union Commander

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • Rosecrans was a good general but he drooped the ball at Chickumaga big time

    Votes: 48 82.8%
  • Rosecrans was just a little bit better then the drunk guy in command at the battle of the Crater

    Votes: 7 12.1%

  • Total voters
    58
To state "Rosecrans was set up for failure by political powers in Washington" does suggest a conspiracy, To prove such which I am not aware of any mainstream historian suggesting so would be to prove that top officials in Washington DC knew at least to very close degree where Bragg's and Longstreets's forces where and ensure that the AoC would simply not have the troops and supplies to fight them.
Leftyhunter

Something that really surprised me in the course of my research was how shallow mainstream CW history is.
A lot is left out or glossed over in the large survey histories that tend to sell the most books.
I intend to write an article about the battle of Iuka in which I hope to show where the "leading" scholars' work on that battle is lacking.
It seems to me this can only be the result of poor scholarship or the deliberate leaving out of information.
Many of the more scholarly mainstream historians have in turn criticized and rejected the work and conclusions of mainstream historians who came before them. Rethinking interpretations of the past based on new information is what historians are supposed to do.
As far as a conspiracy, I think I document the case for one in the book. No one doubts that politics played a role in what generals rose and fell in the Mexican War? Why would the CW be different?
 
As I say in my book in the first few hours after the breakthrough it was important for Dana to let the authorities in Washington know what the actual situation was. The first report he sent was of a severe rout of the AotC. The second dispatch says "I am happy to report that my dispatch of 4pm today proves to have given too dark a view of our disaster."
Truth was paramount. However everyone who has studied Dana's role in the war knows he was a spy for the War Dept and was a man with an agenda. His dispatches turn negative around Sept 27. The question is how honest were those dispatches?

I'm sorry, but I have to point out that you once again contradict yourself. You say that Dana's first report, on September 23 "was of a severe rout of the AotC", and that his second report, a few hours later, refers to the situation as "our disaster". But then just a few sentences later you say that Dana's "dispatches turn negative around Sept. 27". I think most people would consider "severe rout" and "our disaster" to be pretty negative right from the start. However, the fact that Dana could still speak highly of Rosecrans, as you quoted previously, demonstrates that he had no agenda against Rosecrans, whatever other agendas he may or may not have had. He comes across to me as somebody trying to give an honest assessment of a complicated situation.

Montgomery Meigs newly arrived at Chartanooga wrote the following (I have boldfaced some sentences of interest):

Chattanooga, September 27, 1863.
(Received 4.50 a. m., 28th.) Hon. E. M. Stanton,
Secretary of War:
I have with General Rosecrans visited the lines of defense of this place. I have seen the men vigorous, hearty, cheerful, and confident. The position is very strong already, and rapidly approaching a perfect security against assault. Nothing but a regular siege could, I think, reduce it. That would take time. The difficulties of transportation of supplies are immense. The roads are rocky and mountainous, yet trains get through without much destruction of wagons. When the river rises the bridges will go, but the river will become navigable. One steam-boat and a few flats are ready for service. Another steam-boat is nearing completion. For another the machinery is at Bridgeport. The water is too low at present for the Paint Rock, the captured steam-boat, to navigate the river, and the rebels command the channel. When the troops understood to be on their way here arrive. General Rosecrans expects to recover command of the river to Bridgeport. Supplies can then be accumulated by water. A month's hard service has much injured the wagon-trains; animals still in very fair condition, so far as I have seen them. Plenty of them here and at Nashville.

I have spent the time thus far with the commander and the chief officers of this army. It is difficult for the leaders to abstain from claiming a complete victory. They believe they could have remained upon the battle-field, and that in that case the enemy would have retired. The crushing of the right and center, or of a portion thereof, led to the movement by which the army fell back upon and occupied Chattanooga. Chattanooga is fast becoming a fortress and depot which will serve as a base of future operations. As I now see this field it appears to me that the great effort of the rebels by which, concentrating in Georgia, they hoped to crush this army and recover possession of Tennessee and Kentucky, has failed. If so, thefruits of victory are with General Rosecrans, though the trophies, the battle-field, and part of the wounded have fallen into the hands of the enemy. Still, the rebels have not yet abandoned their purpose. Their camp-fires covered the hills last night. Their pickets are within rifle shot, and are visible from the intrenchments. The men await them with confidence. I doubt their attempting an assault. If they are wise I think they will not.

The railroad from Nashville to Reynoldsburg, on the Tennessee River, should be completed, securing water transportation to that point on theTennessee, and supplying Nashville depot while the Cumberland is low and the Louisville and Nashville Railroad broken or overtasked. The iron is reported on the ground; all but 4 miles graded. I have ordered ship-carpenters to be sent from Louisville to build boats at Bridgeport. Things look much better here than I expected to find them wlien I left Nashville; still success will demand efforts from the army and from the country. Of the rugged nature of this region, I had no conception when I left Washington. I never traveled on such roads before.

M. C. MEIGS, Quartermaster- General.

One can believe Meigs or one can believe Dana who was called by Gordon Granger a "loathsome pimp."

I don't see all that much difference between what Meigs was saying and what Dana was saying. Where Dana wrote about a "severe rout" and "our disaster", Meigs wrote of "the crushing of the right and center". I also note that Meigs doesn't call the battle a victory himself, he says that "the leaders" find it difficult "to abstain from claiming a complete victory". But one could have said the same thing about Hood after the Battle of Franklin.
 
I've found few contemporary negative letters about Rosecrans. I have for those who have them to post them on this site.
The result has been letters reports by Alfred Hough, Dana, WF Shanks, Garfield years after the facts via Cox , and perhaps William Hazen. That's it. I know other negative letters written close to the time exist but I have found almost none.
I know all this pro Rosecrans information sounds incredible but it is what I have discovered in my research.

I agree that there isn't much that can be said negative about Rosecrans himself. He was a good man, a dedicated soldier, and a competent leader. Earlier in this thread I rated him a 6-7 on a scale of 10. But the situation called for an 8 or higher.
 
I'm sorry, but I have to point out that you once again contradict yourself. You say that Dana's first report, on September 23 "was of a severe rout of the AotC", and that his second report, a few hours later, refers to the situation as "our disaster". But then just a few sentences later you say that Dana's "dispatches turn negative around Sept. 27". I think most people would consider "severe rout" and "our disaster" to be pretty negative right from the start. However, the fact that Dana could still speak highly of Rosecrans, as you quoted previously, demonstrates that he had no agenda against Rosecrans, whatever other agendas he may or may not have had. He comes across to me as somebody trying to give an honest assessment of a complicated situation.



I don't see all that much difference between what Meigs was saying and what Dana was saying. Where Dana wrote about a "severe rout" and "our disaster", Meigs wrote of "the crushing of the right and center". I also note that Meigs doesn't call the battle a victory himself, he says that "the leaders" find it difficult "to abstain from claiming a complete victory". But one could have said the same thing about Hood after the Battle of Franklin.

Nothing I posted was from Dana's Sept 27th and later telegrams.
Here is a telegram from Dana sent the same day as Meigs':

[Hon. E. M. Stanton,
Secretary of War.]
Chattanooga, September 27.

A very serious fermentation reigns in the Twentieth and Twentyfirst Army Corps, and, indeed, throughout this whole army, growing out or events connected with the battle on Sunday last.

I have already reported that the generals of those two corps left the field of battle amid the rout of the right wing, made their way here with the crowd of fugitives, and went to sleep, while one division of each corps remained fighting with the left wing to the end. The generals of division and of brigade feel deeply this desertion of their commanders, and say, as I am informed on good evidence, for only two or three have spoken to me on the subject, that they can no longer serve under such superiors, and that if it is required of them they must resign. This feeling is universal among them, including men like Major-Generals Palmer and Sheridan and Brigadier-Generals Wood, Johnson, and Hazen. What is the sentimont of Davis I do not know, but I judge from his expressions on a kindred subject that he must agree with the others.

Of course this is a matter which I cannot directly inquire into, and cannot be so fully informed about as if it were an ordinary affair. The feelingin the case of McCook is deepened by the recollection of his faults at Perryville and Murfreesborough, and of the great waste of life which they caused ; while toward Crittenden it is relieved somewhat by consideration for his excellent heart, general good sense, and charming social qualities. Against these, however, is balanced the fact, which I can testify to from my own observation, that he is constantly wanting in attention to the duties of his command, never rides his lines, or exercises any special care for the well-being and safety of his troops, and, in fact, discharges no other function than that of a medium for the transmission of orders.

The feeling of the officers I have mentioned above does not seem in the least to partake of a mutinous or disorderly character; it is rather conscientious unwillingness to risk their men and the country's cause in hands proved to be so uncertain and unsafe. No formal representation of this unwillingness has been made to Rosecrans, but he has been made aware of the state of things by private conversations wi+h several of theparties. The defects of bis character complicate the difficulty. He abounds in friendliness and approbativeness, and is greatly lacking in firmness and steadiness of will. He is a temporizing man, dreads so heavy an alternative as is now presented, and hates to break with McCook and Crittenden. Besides, there is a more serious obstacle to his acting decisively in the fact that if Crittenden and McCook fled to Chattanooga, withthe sound of artillery in their ears, from that glorious field where Thomas and Granger were saving their army and their country's honor, he fled also; and although it may be said in his excuse that, under the circumstances, it was proper for the commanding general to go to his base of operations, while the corps commanders ought to remain with their troops, still he feels that that excuse cannot entirely clear him either in his owneyes or in those of the army. In fact, it is perfectly plain that while the subordinate commanders will not resign if he is retained in the chief command, as I believe they certainly will if McCook and Crittenden are not relieved, their respect for him as a general has received an irreparable blow. And that not from his abandonment of the army alone but from his faulty management on the field, especially in leaving a gap of a whole brigade distance between the divisions of Wood and Davis, and not providing for it till after the battle had become furious, when he attempted to fill it with Van Cleve's forces as I have explained in former reports. But for this gap General Davis thinks the enemy could not have broken his lines and routed the right wing. Thus you will see that here in the face of the enemy this army is in a dangerous condition. The officers who have taken this grave resolution are among the bravest and most discreet in our service. In my judgment the removal of Crittenden and McCook is imperatively required, not merely as a matter of discipline, but to preserve the efficacy, not to say the organization, of this army.

If it be decided to change the chief commander also, I would take the liberty of suggesting that some Western general of high rank and great prestige, like Grant, for instance, would be preferable as his successor to any one who has hitherto commanded in East alone.

I should add that Bosecrans himself intends to punish Negley for having withdrawn his division from tlin battle on Sunday without orders and with his ranks undisturbed, ho having been directed to post himself behind Baird on the extreme left; and all parties feel that Van Cleve ought to be relieved on account of his age, and the utter confusion of mind and incapacity which he manifested on Saturday and Sunday both.

C. A. DANA. [Hon. E. M. Stanton,

Secretary of War.}

One can believe Dana or Meigs. I have some quotes from Johnson, Palmer and Sheridan about Rosecrans.
You should also know that in the 1880s Dana did write to Rosecrans and told him he might have been misinformed and unfair.
 
I agree that there isn't much that can be said negative about Rosecrans himself. He was a good man, a dedicated soldier, and a competent leader. Earlier in this thread I rated him a 6-7 on a scale of 10. But the situation called for an 8 or higher.
I didn't just say I found little negative about Rosecrans the man but Rosecrans the general as well.
 
Nothing I posted was from Dana's Sept 27th and later telegrams.
Here is a telegram from Dana sent the same day as Meigs':

[Hon. E. M. Stanton,
Secretary of War.]
Chattanooga, September 27.

A very serious fermentation reigns in the Twentieth and Twentyfirst Army Corps, and, indeed, throughout this whole army, growing out or events connected with the battle on Sunday last.

I have already reported that the generals of those two corps left the field of battle amid the rout of the right wing, made their way here with the crowd of fugitives, and went to sleep, while one division of each corps remained fighting with the left wing to the end. The generals of division and of brigade feel deeply this desertion of their commanders, and say, as I am informed on good evidence, for only two or three have spoken to me on the subject, that they can no longer serve under such superiors, and that if it is required of them they must resign. This feeling is universal among them, including men like Major-Generals Palmer and Sheridan and Brigadier-Generals Wood, Johnson, and Hazen. What is the sentimont of Davis I do not know, but I judge from his expressions on a kindred subject that he must agree with the others.

Of course this is a matter which I cannot directly inquire into, and cannot be so fully informed about as if it were an ordinary affair. The feelingin the case of McCook is deepened by the recollection of his faults at Perryville and Murfreesborough, and of the great waste of life which they caused ; while toward Crittenden it is relieved somewhat by consideration for his excellent heart, general good sense, and charming social qualities. Against these, however, is balanced the fact, which I can testify to from my own observation, that he is constantly wanting in attention to the duties of his command, never rides his lines, or exercises any special care for the well-being and safety of his troops, and, in fact, discharges no other function than that of a medium for the transmission of orders.

The feeling of the officers I have mentioned above does not seem in the least to partake of a mutinous or disorderly character; it is rather conscientious unwillingness to risk their men and the country's cause in hands proved to be so uncertain and unsafe. No formal representation of this unwillingness has been made to Rosecrans, but he has been made aware of the state of things by private conversations wi+h several of theparties. The defects of bis character complicate the difficulty. He abounds in friendliness and approbativeness, and is greatly lacking in firmness and steadiness of will. He is a temporizing man, dreads so heavy an alternative as is now presented, and hates to break with McCook and Crittenden. Besides, there is a more serious obstacle to his acting decisively in the fact that if Crittenden and McCook fled to Chattanooga, withthe sound of artillery in their ears, from that glorious field where Thomas and Granger were saving their army and their country's honor, he fled also; and although it may be said in his excuse that, under the circumstances, it was proper for the commanding general to go to his base of operations, while the corps commanders ought to remain with their troops, still he feels that that excuse cannot entirely clear him either in his owneyes or in those of the army. In fact, it is perfectly plain that while the subordinate commanders will not resign if he is retained in the chief command, as I believe they certainly will if McCook and Crittenden are not relieved, their respect for him as a general has received an irreparable blow. And that not from his abandonment of the army alone but from his faulty management on the field, especially in leaving a gap of a whole brigade distance between the divisions of Wood and Davis, and not providing for it till after the battle had become furious, when he attempted to fill it with Van Cleve's forces as I have explained in former reports. But for this gap General Davis thinks the enemy could not have broken his lines and routed the right wing. Thus you will see that here in the face of the enemy this army is in a dangerous condition. The officers who have taken this grave resolution are among the bravest and most discreet in our service. In my judgment the removal of Crittenden and McCook is imperatively required, not merely as a matter of discipline, but to preserve the efficacy, not to say the organization, of this army.

If it be decided to change the chief commander also, I would take the liberty of suggesting that some Western general of high rank and great prestige, like Grant, for instance, would be preferable as his successor to any one who has hitherto commanded in East alone.

I should add that Bosecrans himself intends to punish Negley for having withdrawn his division from tlin battle on Sunday without orders and with his ranks undisturbed, ho having been directed to post himself behind Baird on the extreme left; and all parties feel that Van Cleve ought to be relieved on account of his age, and the utter confusion of mind and incapacity which he manifested on Saturday and Sunday both.

C. A. DANA. [Hon. E. M. Stanton,

Secretary of War.}

One can believe Dana or Meigs. I have some quotes from Johnson, Palmer and Sheridan about Rosecrans.
You should also know that in the 1880s Dana did write to Rosecrans and told him he might have been misinformed and unfair.

Certainly there is a very different tone in this dispatch than in Meigs' of the same day. It would appear that Dana was analyzing the situation much more in depth than Meigs was. Meigs' assessment seems very superficial. He's relating what "General Rosecrans expects" and what "the leaders" (which leaders?) are claiming about victory - nowhere near the depth of specificity that we see in Dana's report. Of course Rosecrans would be expected to put on his best face for a visiting dignitary from Washington, and if that dignitary doesn't look beneath the surface, that's all he's going to see.

I see no reason to accept Meigs' superficial assessment over Dana's in-depth assessment, other than a prejudice against Dana himself, which from the evidence presented here appears to be unwarranted. And even if we do hang our hats on Meigs' assessment, we have to concede that Rosecrans' forces were "crushed" at the Battle of Chickamauga, and that all we can say now is that the rebel plan to "recover possession of Tennessee and Kentucky has failed." It's all about the defensive and fortifying.

But the whole objective is to be going on the offensive. In the nine months since the Battle of Stones River, this army has advanced sixty miles, inflicted virtually no damage on its opponent, captured one key city (by maneuver) which it is now trying to hang on to, and been "crushed" (Meigs' own word) in the one major battle that it's fought. Again, this is the work of a 6 or 7 commander. But if the objective is to move into the Confederate heartland and inflict serious damage on the enemy, better and more aggressive leadership was going to be needed.
 
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8 on planning
5 on execution
McClellan disease

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Many people started out with high expectations of Rosecrans, and gradually became disappointed with him. Grant, Halleck, Dana, Cox, Lincoln.

Whereas Grant did the best with what he had, Rosecrans complained and made demands and made excuses. Throughout the war, his superiors had a hard time getting Rosecrans to do what they wanted. And in the heat of battle, he lost his composure and became over-excited.
 
McPherson not an expert on the Cracker Line. I'd like to know the name of the Union officer.
Why weren't at least some of Sherman's troops sent to Rosecrans in August?
Good question. Did Rosecrans request more troops and if so did logistics allow them to reinforce him by August and or where their other priorities?
Leftyhunter
 
Something that really surprised me in the course of my research was how shallow mainstream CW history is.
A lot is left out or glossed over in the large survey histories that tend to sell the most books.
I intend to write an article about the battle of Iuka in which I hope to show where the "leading" scholars' work on that battle is lacking.
It seems to me this can only be the result of poor scholarship or the deliberate leaving out of information.
Many of the more scholarly mainstream historians have in turn criticized and rejected the work and conclusions of mainstream historians who came before them. Rethinking interpretations of the past based on new information is what historians are supposed to do.
As far as a conspiracy, I think I document the case for one in the book. No one doubts that politics played a role in what generals rose and fell in the Mexican War? Why would the CW be different?
That would certainly alter current Civil War Scholarship to prove that higher up deliberately caused the needless deaths of thousands of troops just to make a Gen. Rosecrans look bad.
Leftyhunter
 
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Certainly there is a very different tone in this dispatch than in Meigs' of the same day. It would appear that Dana was analyzing the situation much more in depth than Meigs was. Meigs' assessment seems very superficial. He's relating what "General Rosecrans expects" and what "the leaders" (which leaders?) are claiming about victory - nowhere near the depth of specificity that we see in Dana's report. Of course Rosecrans would be expected to put on his best face for a visiting dignitary from Washington, and if that dignitary doesn't look beneath the surface, that's all he's going to see.

I see no reason to accept Meigs' superficial assessment over Dana's in-depth assessment, other than a prejudice against Dana himself, which from the evidence presented here appears to be unwarranted. And even if we do hang our hats on Meigs' assessment, we have to concede that Rosecrans' forces were "crushed" at the Battle of Chickamauga, and that all we can say now is that the rebel plan to "recover possession of Tennessee and Kentucky has failed." It's all about the defensive and fortifying.

But the whole objective is to be going on the offensive. In the nine months since the Battle of Stones River, this army has advanced sixty miles, inflicted virtually no damage on its opponent, captured one key city (by maneuver) which it is now trying to hang on to, and been "crushed" (Meigs' own word) in the one major battle that it's fought. Again, this is the work of a 6 or 7 commander. But if the objective is to move into the Confederate heartland and inflict serious damage on the enemy, better and more aggressive leadership was going to be needed.
You might have mentioned that Middle Tennessee was wrested from the enemy.
Here is a question I have asked others on this site but I don't think I have gotten an answer.
If Rosecrans had moved earlier than late June from Murfressboro, and if he had had a battle with Bragg in May
and assuming he wouldn't have destroyed Bragg's army (which perhaps never happened in the war) what would have been the next move by each army? Presumably Bragg would have retreated toward Chattanooga. Could Rosecrans with an army suffering thousands of casualties pursued him with vigor? What would a battle of Tullahoma have accomplished that the Tullahoma campaign didn't?
When-if ever- do you think Reinforcements should have been sent to Rosecrans from Sherman and/or Grant?

It appears you trust Dana over Meigs but keep in mind Dana himself later wrote Rosecrans he may have been misinformed and unfair.
 
What would a battle of Tullahoma have accomplished that the Tullahoma campaign didn't?

It would have subtracted thousands of irreplaceable soldiers from Bragg's ranks, making it less likely that Bragg could threaten Chattanooga again and more likely that he could be driven back through Georgia.

It appears you trust Dana over Meigs but keep in mind Dana himself later wrote Rosecrans he may have been misinformed and unfair.

I've seen no reason to believe that either of them was misrepresenting what he saw. But clearly Dana saw a lot more than Meigs did. And neither of them inspire any confidence that Rosecrans was up to the task.
 
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It is the unfortunate truth of leadership that to be successful in a military endeavor you must be willing to bear the weight of that effort. That weight is borne by the thing you hold most dear - your soldiers. McClellan could not bring himself to that realization and to a lesser degree Rosecrans could not either.
 
That would certainly alter current Civil War Scholarship to prove that higher up deliberately caused the needless deaths of thousands of troops just to make a Gen. Rosecrans look bad.
Leftyhunter
Not to make Rosecrans look bad but to make sure he failed and others would benefit.
Garfield used the word "evil." Ord wrote the following to his wife:
"July 17, 1864
….the politicians still control matters here [Washington]- or seek to control them so that a general who is simply governed by military interests, and discards politics would be pulled to pieces and turned away -"
Horace N. Fisher -who was there in 1863- wrote the following to John D. Long who was governor of Massachusetts after the war;
"After his victory at Stone River there came a set of disgruntled politicians to Rosecrans to get him to run as opposition candidate to Prest. Lincoln I have always thought that the fact of the overture thus made became known in Washington... and that this created a determination to get rid of him and led to his removal from command."
[Horace Greeley sent James Gilmore aka Edmund Kirk to Tennessee to sound out Rosecrans about running against Lincoln. Rosecrans flatly rejected the overture.]

Not pretty stuff. Not what we read in our textbooks.
 
Not just the slows but some timidity in using the army he assembled, much like McClellan
I would say that given the resistance he faced Grant's pace was breakneck.
What were the ratios of troops/enemy between the the armies Rosecrans faced in Tennessee and Grant in VA?
I refer you to the Ord quotes in post 99 on this thread
 

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