How would you rate Rosecrans?

[leftyhunter]

Garfield's relationship with Rosecrans is complex. I think he genuinely liked Rosecrans, he wrote "he loved every bone in his body" but he was a politician first and a soldier second. He did give a speech praising Rosecrans on the floor of the House of Representatives in 1864. The two had a falling out in 1880 and never reconciled. I think Dana did more harm to Rosecrans but I also think Rosecrans was set up for failure by political powers in Washington. Garfield, and others,believed that to be the case.

It is interesting that on p.194 of the link from Brass Napoleon that Charles Danna states"I can testify to the conspicuous and steady gallantry of Rosecrans on the field". Danna at least at first blames Gen.McCook for the disaster at Chickumauga.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

A board of officers was convened in 1900-01 to determine who came up with the plan to open the Cracker Line and they concluded it was Rosecrans. The conclusion is on page 20
https://archive.org/stream/reportofboardofa00unit#page/20/mode/2up

True but as McPhearson points out it was carried out by Grant. Also it required the help of Gen.Hookers Corps.
Leftyhunteer

 

[David Moore]

But that was "on the field". At the time that Dana wrote that, Rosecrans was already off the field, while Thomas was still holding it. It's also worth noting that Dana still refers to the situation as "our disaster". Here's the message in its entirety:

https://books.google.com/books?id=b5QtAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA193

It is the message sent after the "Chickamauga is as fatal a name in our history as Bull Run" one.
Dana, who himself panicked and fled during the battle, is telling that he saw Rosecrans fight and not flee in a panic.
I post this only to show that the man who became Rosecrans' biggest detractor in the says after Chickamauga praises him in the first few hours after the battle.

The letter by the young soldier (Dean Chester) I think is very moving and I think accurate.
Dean's brother sent it to Lincoln. here is the letter he wrote which accompanied his brother's letter"

From A. Chester to Abraham Lincoln, November 13, 1863
Washington D. C.
Nov. 13th 1863
Sir
The following extracts of letters relate to Gen. Rosecrans at the battle of Chicamauga. They were written by one of those plain, practical, earnest young men who are always at the post-of-duty, -- one who had led his company in the "thick of the fight" in every battle of Rosecrans from Perryville to Chicamauga, nor flinched a moment from his post, (when at the battle of Stone-River a Shell had torn his Pants & Bootleg off injuring his leg while pressing into the fight,) -- until the victory was gained. His veracity is as trusty as his courage. I take pleasure in laying his testimony before you, though only intended as a private letter
With great respect
Yours
A. Chester

I have read over a hundred letters from similar plain, practical, earnest young men who praised and even loved the man they called Old Rosey. It was in part to give voice to them that I wrote my book and tell the story of General Rosecrans
to any who wish to listen.

 

[leftyhunter]

Garfield's relationship with Rosecrans is complex. I think he genuinely liked Rosecrans, he wrote "he loved every bone in his body" but he was a politician first and a soldier second. He did give a speech praising Rosecrans on the floor of the House of Representatives in 1864. The two had a falling out in 1880 and never reconciled. I think Dana did more harm to Rosecrans but I also think Rosecrans was set up for failure by political powers in Washington. Garfield, and others,believed that to be the case.

To state "Rosecrans was set up for failure by political powers in Washington" does suggest a conspiracy, To prove such which I am not aware of any mainstream historian suggesting so would be to prove that top officials in Washington DC knew at least to very close degree where Bragg's and Longstreets's forces where and ensure that the AoC would simply not have the troops and supplies to fight them.
Leftyhunter

 

[Sbc]

A board of officers was convened in 1900-01 to determine who came up with the plan to open the Cracker Line and they concluded it was Rosecrans. The conclusion is on page 20
https://archive.org/stream/reportofboardofa00unit#page/20/mode/2up

Which would not be necessary except for that debacle at Chickamauga Creek

 

[David Moore]

True but as McPhearson points out it was carried out by Grant. Also it required the help of Gen.Hookers Corps.
Leftyhunteer

Rosecrans had been in communication with Hooker. Because Hooker didn't feel he was able to move when Rosecrans wanted him to the carrying out of the plan was delayed until after Rosecrans' removal. Grant's presence had nothing to do with the design or carrying out of the plan.
A letter written by William le Duc who piloted the first boat that carried supplies to Chattanooga after the opening of the Cracker Line to Gen Richard Johnson:

Hastings, July 6, 1886.

My Dear General Johnson:

The proof-sheet received and read. Please accept my thanks for your kindly mention, but you give me credit overmuch. If not beyond your control, could you not have the text changed, so as to express the exact truth, which was that I found a scow in process of construction on the banks of the Tennessee River when I arrived there with General Hooker's command, which, as you of course know, was sent from the Army of the Potomac to the assistance of Rosecrans? Our first duty being to secure the long line of communication between Nashville and Chattanooga, and to do whatever might be done to forward supplies to the famishing army at Chattanooga, Rosecrans, with prudent forethought, had ordered the construction of five steamers on the Tennessee, and the repair of the railroad, two very important bridges of which had been destroyed by the rebels, one across the Tennessee and one over the Rolling Stone, half-way between Bridgeport and Chattanooga. One of these flat-bottomed steam scows had been put on some posts and blocking near the bank of the river, and the work was prosecuted by a very competent ship-carpenter by the name of Turner, who was employed by Captain Edwards, A.Q.M. The timbers and lumber for the boats had to be made from the stump, and it was with difficulty that the machinery was shipped over the railroad from Nashville, as every engine and car was needed to transport rations. When the rains and rebel cavalry had made the wagon-road on the north side of the river impassable, rapid building of the steamboat became ofthe highest importance. I took personal supervision of the work, and crowded it forward night as well as day, saving the hull from destruction by floating it upon pontoons, and navigated it, as you describe, to Kelly's Ferry, with the first cargo of rations to reach the starving army. But for my action it is quite safe to say this boat would not have been launched for some weeks after it was, if at all, and certainly could not have contributed, as it did materially, to the success of our efforts to secure possession of that very important strategic position, Chattanooga.

General Rosecrans has not received the credit due him for his skilful conduct of the campaign. He foresaw the probable need of river transportation, and, so far as giving orders, provided for the emergency. Had those intrusted with the execution of these orders pushed through their work more energetically, and had the boats ready for use when needed, great loss of animals and distress of men would have been saved, and Rosecrans would have retained his position as commander of the Army of the Cumberland. The unfriendliness of Assistant Secretary Dana and the impatience of Secretary Stanton secured his downfall.

Respectfully, etc.,

Wm. G. Le Duc.
page 419 https://books.google.com/books?dq=r...&id=X9FBAAAAIAAJ#v=onepage&q=overmuch&f=false

 

[Sbc]

It is the message sent after the "Chickamauga is as fatal a name in our history as Bull Run" one.
Dana, who himself panicked and fled during the battle, is telling that he saw Rosecrans fight and not flee in a panic.
I post this only to show that the man who became Rosecrans' biggest detractor in the says after Chickamauga praises him in the first few hours after the battle.

The letter by the young soldier (Dean Chester) I think is very moving and I think accurate.
Dean's brother sent it to Lincoln. here is the letter he wrote which accompanied his brother's letter"

From A. Chester to Abraham Lincoln, November 13, 1863
Washington D. C.
Nov. 13th 1863
Sir
The following extracts of letters relate to Gen. Rosecrans at the battle of Chicamauga. They were written by one of those plain, practical, earnest young men who are always at the post-of-duty, -- one who had led his company in the "thick of the fight" in every battle of Rosecrans from Perryville to Chicamauga, nor flinched a moment from his post, (when at the battle of Stone-River a Shell had torn his Pants & Bootleg off injuring his leg while pressing into the fight,) -- until the victory was gained. His veracity is as trusty as his courage. I take pleasure in laying his testimony before you, though only intended as a private letter
With great respect
Yours
A. Chester

I have read over a hundred letters from similar plain, practical, earnest young men who praised and even loved the man they called Old Rosey. It was in part to give voice to them that I wrote my book and tell the story of General Rosecrans
to any who wish to listen.

Dana seems to be a double edged sword for Rosecrans

 

[David Moore]

Which would not be necessary except for that debacle at Chickamauga Creek

But if Rosecrans had devised a plan to open the cracker line and was about to carry it out - not something a stunned duck could do- then the question is why was he removed? My answer would be politics in Washington.

 

[Sbc]

But if Rosecrans had devised a plan to open the cracker line and was about to carry it out - not something a stunned duck couldn't do- then the question is why was he removed? My answer would be politics in Washington.

You are ignoring the obvious--no such effort is required if Chickamauga is avoided

 

[David Moore]

Dana seems to be a double edged sword for Rosecrans

Dana was another politically motivated person. He was a spy for the War Dept first sent to spy on Grant and then Rosecrans. He was dishonest, as he later admitted, when he wrote that Grant didn't drink.
His job, I would say, was to provide evidence that Rosecrans was incapable of leading the AotC. In this he succeeded.
He later in the 1880s admitted to Rosecrans that what he wrote in the 1860s may have been misinformed and unfair. An irony is that editor Dana of the NY Sun turned against President Grant.

 

[David Moore]

You are ignoring the obvious--no such effort is required if Chickamauga is avoided

Let's say Rosecrans had managed to get his army into Chattanooga as quickly as possible after Bragg evacuated it on Sept 7.
Then what would have happened? Take your time. Think about the various scenarios.
I'm going to sign off for a while. I may check back later this evening.

 

[Sbc]

Let's say Rosecrans had managed to get his army into Chattanooga as quickly as possible after Bragg evacuated it on Sept 7.
Then what would have happened? Take your time. Think about the various scenarios.
I'm going to sign off for a while. I may check back later this evening.

Well truly that will take some time to ponder

 

[leftyhunter]

Rosecrans had been in communication with Hooker. Because Hooker didn't feel he was able to move when Rosecrans wanted him to the carrying out of the plan was delayed until after Rosecrans' removal. Grant's presence had nothing to do with the design or carrying out of the plan.
A letter written by William le Duc who piloted the first boat that carried supplies to Chattanooga after the opening of the Cracker Line to Gen Richard Johnson:

Hastings, July 6, 1886.

My Dear General Johnson:

The proof-sheet received and read. Please accept my thanks for your kindly mention, but you give me credit overmuch. If not beyond your control, could you not have the text changed, so as to express the exact truth, which was that I found a scow in process of construction on the banks of the Tennessee River when I arrived there with General Hooker's command, which, as you of course know, was sent from the Army of the Potomac to the assistance of Rosecrans? Our first duty being to secure the long line of communication between Nashville and Chattanooga, and to do whatever might be done to forward supplies to the famishing army at Chattanooga, Rosecrans, with prudent forethought, had ordered the construction of five steamers on the Tennessee, and the repair of the railroad, two very important bridges of which had been destroyed by the rebels, one across the Tennessee and one over the Rolling Stone, half-way between Bridgeport and Chattanooga. One of these flat-bottomed steam scows had been put on some posts and blocking near the bank of the river, and the work was prosecuted by a very competent ship-carpenter by the name of Turner, who was employed by Captain Edwards, A.Q.M. The timbers and lumber for the boats had to be made from the stump, and it was with difficulty that the machinery was shipped over the railroad from Nashville, as every engine and car was needed to transport rations. When the rains and rebel cavalry had made the wagon-road on the north side of the river impassable, rapid building of the steamboat became ofthe highest importance. I took personal supervision of the work, and crowded it forward night as well as day, saving the hull from destruction by floating it upon pontoons, and navigated it, as you describe, to Kelly's Ferry, with the first cargo of rations to reach the starving army. But for my action it is quite safe to say this boat would not have been launched for some weeks after it was, if at all, and certainly could not have contributed, as it did materially, to the success of our efforts to secure possession of that very important strategic position, Chattanooga.

General Rosecrans has not received the credit due him for his skilful conduct of the campaign. He foresaw the probable need of river transportation, and, so far as giving orders, provided for the emergency. Had those intrusted with the execution of these orders pushed through their work more energetically, and had the boats ready for use when needed, great loss of animals and distress of men would have been saved, and Rosecrans would have retained his position as commander of the Army of the Cumberland. The unfriendliness of Assistant Secretary Dana and the impatience of Secretary Stanton secured his downfall.

Respectfully, etc.,

Wm. G. Le Duc.
page 419 https://books.google.com/books?dq=r...&id=X9FBAAAAIAAJ#v=onepage&q=overmuch&f=false

Interesting quote hers some other perspectives.
From McPhearson. p.676
""With in a week of Grants arrival on October 23rd , Union forces had broken the rebel stranglehold on the road and river west of Chattanooga and opened a new supply line called the"cracker line" by hungry bluecoats . Although Rosecrans staff had planned the operation that accomplished this it was Grant that ordered it done. A Union officer later recalled that when Grant came on the scene"we began to see things move. We felt everything came from a plan. Also McPhearson states that by mid November Sherman brought in 17k troops to supplement the 20k men brought in by Gen. Hooker.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Rosecrans had been in communication with Hooker. Because Hooker didn't feel he was able to move when Rosecrans wanted him to the carrying out of the plan was delayed until after Rosecrans' removal. Grant's presence had nothing to do with the design or carrying out of the plan.
A letter written by William le Duc who piloted the first boat that carried supplies to Chattanooga after the opening of the Cracker Line to Gen Richard Johnson:

Hastings, July 6, 1886.

My Dear General Johnson:

The proof-sheet received and read. Please accept my thanks for your kindly mention, but you give me credit overmuch. If not beyond your control, could you not have the text changed, so as to express the exact truth, which was that I found a scow in process of construction on the banks of the Tennessee River when I arrived there with General Hooker's command, which, as you of course know, was sent from the Army of the Potomac to the assistance of Rosecrans? Our first duty being to secure the long line of communication between Nashville and Chattanooga, and to do whatever might be done to forward supplies to the famishing army at Chattanooga, Rosecrans, with prudent forethought, had ordered the construction of five steamers on the Tennessee, and the repair of the railroad, two very important bridges of which had been destroyed by the rebels, one across the Tennessee and one over the Rolling Stone, half-way between Bridgeport and Chattanooga. One of these flat-bottomed steam scows had been put on some posts and blocking near the bank of the river, and the work was prosecuted by a very competent ship-carpenter by the name of Turner, who was employed by Captain Edwards, A.Q.M. The timbers and lumber for the boats had to be made from the stump, and it was with difficulty that the machinery was shipped over the railroad from Nashville, as every engine and car was needed to transport rations. When the rains and rebel cavalry had made the wagon-road on the north side of the river impassable, rapid building of the steamboat became ofthe highest importance. I took personal supervision of the work, and crowded it forward night as well as day, saving the hull from destruction by floating it upon pontoons, and navigated it, as you describe, to Kelly's Ferry, with the first cargo of rations to reach the starving army. But for my action it is quite safe to say this boat would not have been launched for some weeks after it was, if at all, and certainly could not have contributed, as it did materially, to the success of our efforts to secure possession of that very important strategic position, Chattanooga.

General Rosecrans has not received the credit due him for his skilful conduct of the campaign. He foresaw the probable need of river transportation, and, so far as giving orders, provided for the emergency. Had those intrusted with the execution of these orders pushed through their work more energetically, and had the boats ready for use when needed, great loss of animals and distress of men would have been saved, and Rosecrans would have retained his position as commander of the Army of the Cumberland. The unfriendliness of Assistant Secretary Dana and the impatience of Secretary Stanton secured his downfall.

Respectfully, etc.,

Wm. G. Le Duc.
page 419 https://books.google.com/books?dq=r...&id=X9FBAAAAIAAJ#v=onepage&q=overmuch&f=false

Here's another perspective this one from Grant himself.
Battles and Leaders of the Civil War edited by Ned Bradford Appleton Century Crofts p.448
" In the course of the evening Mr. Stanton had received a dispatch from Mr. C.A. Danna then in Chattanooga, informing him that unless prevented Rosecrans would retreat and advising peremptory orders against his doing so. Then Grant discuss how that would be a disaster. grant just prior to Danna's report decided to relieve Rosecrans of his command. Grant describes the necessity of finding a better way to resupply the AoC.
p.450
"On the morning of the 21st we took the train for the front reaching Stevenson, Alabama after dark. Rosecrans was there on his way North. He came into my car , and we held a brief interview in which he described very clearly the situation at Chattanooga, and made some excellent suggestions as to what should be done. My only wonder was that he did not carry them out".
Of course you already know all this but the posted information might prove interesting to our friends on the forum.
Leftyhunter

 

[David Moore]

This is of course from Grant's Memoirs. The first paragraph is discussed in Frank Varney's book on Grant's Memoirs.
I also discuss it in my book on page 138..
There are problems with the timing of the telegrams and Grant made the decision to relieve Rosecrans before he received any telegram from Dana. Plus there is no telegram from Dana saying that Rosecrans was about to vacate Chattanooga.

 

[David Moore]

Interesting quote hers some other perspectives.
From McPhearson. p.676
""With in a week of Grants arrival on October 23rd , Union forces had broken the rebel stranglehold on the road and river west of Chattanooga and opened a new supply line called the"cracker line" by hungry bluecoats . Although Rosecrans staff had planned the operation that accomplished this it was Grant that ordered it done. A Union officer later recalled that when Grant came on the scene"we began to see things move. We felt everything came from a plan. Also McPhearson states that by mid November Sherman brought in 17k troops to supplement the 20k men brought in by Gen. Hooker.
Leftyhunter

McPherson not an expert on the Cracker Line. I'd like to know the name of the Union officer.
Why weren't at least some of Sherman's troops sent to Rosecrans in August?

 

[brass napoleon]

Dana was another politically motivated person. He was a spy for the War Dept first sent to spy on Grant and then Rosecrans. He was dishonest, as he later admitted, when he wrote that Grant didn't drink.
His job, I would say, was to provide evidence that Rosecrans was incapable of leading the AotC. In this he succeeded.
He later in the 1880s admitted to Rosecrans that what he wrote in the 1860s may have been misinformed and unfair. An irony is that editor Dana of the NY Sun turned against President Grant.

You contradict yourself. Here you say that Dana was out to get Rosecrans. Previously you post a snippet from a report where he praises Rosecrans. This seems like pretty severe cherry-picking. You can't have it both ways. If Dana was out to get Rosecrans he never would have praised him the way he did in the snippet you previously quoted.

 

[brass napoleon]

I have read over a hundred letters from similar plain, practical, earnest young men who praised and even loved the man they called Old Rosey. It was in part to give voice to them that I wrote my book and tell the story of General Rosecrans
to any who wish to listen.

Certainly it is a good thing to bring all this information to light and to take it all into account. I think the results of this poll reflect that, at least on this forum, Rosecrans is held in fairly high regard. But to take these letters into account and dismiss all criticism of Rosecrans as some kind of conspiracy theory is just as one-sided as to ignore these letters and write Rosecrans off as "little better than a drunk guy".

 

[David Moore]

You contradict yourself. Here you say that Dana was out to get Rosecrans. Previously you post a snippet from a report where he praises Rosecrans. This seems like pretty severe cherry-picking. You can't have it both ways. If Dana was out to get Rosecrans he never would have praised him the way he did in the snippet you previously quoted.

As I say in my book in the first few hours after the breakthrough it was important for Dana to let the authorities in Washington know what the actual situation was. The first report he sent was of a severe rout of the AotC. The second dispatch says "I am happy to report that my dispatch of 4pm today proves to have given too dark a view of our disaster."
Truth was paramount. However everyone who has studied Dana's role in the war knows he was a spy for the War Dept and was a man with an agenda. His dispatches turn negative around Sept 27. The question is how honest were those dispatches?
Montgomery Meigs newly arrived at Chartanooga wrote the following (I have boldfaced some sentences of interest):

Chattanooga, September 27, 1863.
(Received 4.50 a. m., 28th.) Hon. E. M. Stanton,
Secretary of War:
I have with General Rosecrans visited the lines of defense of this place. I have seen the men vigorous, hearty, cheerful, and confident. The position is very strong already, and rapidly approaching a perfect security against assault. Nothing but a regular siege could, I think, reduce it. That would take time. The difficulties of transportation of supplies are immense. The roads are rocky and mountainous, yet trains get through without much destruction of wagons. When the river rises the bridges will go, but the river will become navigable. One steam-boat and a few flats are ready for service. Another steam-boat is nearing completion. For another the machinery is at Bridgeport. The water is too low at present for the Paint Rock, the captured steam-boat, to navigate the river, and the rebels command the channel. When the troops understood to be on their way here arrive. General Rosecrans expects to recover command of the river to Bridgeport. Supplies can then be accumulated by water. A month's hard service has much injured the wagon-trains; animals still in very fair condition, so far as I have seen them. Plenty of them here and at Nashville.

I have spent the time thus far with the commander and the chief officers of this army. It is difficult for the leaders to abstain from claiming a complete victory. They believe they could have remained upon the battle-field, and that in that case the enemy would have retired. The crushing of the right and center, or of a portion thereof, led to the movement by which the army fell back upon and occupied Chattanooga. Chattanooga is fast becoming a fortress and depot which will serve as a base of future operations. As I now see this field it appears to me that the great effort of the rebels by which, concentrating in Georgia, they hoped to crush this army and recover possession of Tennessee and Kentucky, has failed. If so, thefruits of victory are with General Rosecrans, though the trophies, the battle-field, and part of the wounded have fallen into the hands of the enemy. Still, the rebels have not yet abandoned their purpose. Their camp-fires covered the hills last night. Their pickets are within rifle shot, and are visible from the intrenchments. The men await them with confidence. I doubt their attempting an assault. If they are wise I think they will not.

The railroad from Nashville to Reynoldsburg, on the Tennessee River, should be completed, securing water transportation to that point on theTennessee, and supplying Nashville depot while the Cumberland is low and the Louisville and Nashville Railroad broken or overtasked. The iron is reported on the ground; all but 4 miles graded. I have ordered ship-carpenters to be sent from Louisville to build boats at Bridgeport. Things look much better here than I expected to find them wlien I left Nashville; still success will demand efforts from the army and from the country. Of the rugged nature of this region, I had no conception when I left Washington. I never traveled on such roads before.

M. C. MEIGS, Quartermaster- General.

One can believe Meigs or one can believe Dana who was called by Gordon Granger a "loathsome pimp."

 

[David Moore]

Certainly it is a good thing to bring all this information to light and to take it all into account. I think the results of this poll reflect that, at least on this forum, Rosecrans is held in fairly high regard. But to take these letters into account and dismiss all criticism of Rosecrans as some kind of conspiracy theory is just as one-sided as to ignore these letters and write Rosecrans off as "little better than a drunk guy".

I've found few contemporary negative letters about Rosecrans. I have asked for those who have them to post them on this site.
The result has been letters reports by Alfred Hough, Dana, WF Shanks, Garfield years after the facts via Cox , and perhaps William Hazen. That's it. I know other negative letters written close to the time exist but I have found almost none.
I know all this pro Rosecrans information sounds incredible but it is what I have discovered in my research.