Handgun Evolution

[Bob Owen]

50 years after the 1860 Colt Army revolver was produced, the Colt 1911 was produced. One hundred years later, the 1911 Colt is still going strong and being used by current Special Ops units today. Just a comment to ponder.

 

[Southron Sr.]

The ONLY reason the M1911 was dropped as our standard service pistol in the 1980's was because of politics. The Beretta entry won the pistol competition was because the outcome was "rigged." The Italian government secretly threatened to cancel the leases on U.S. Air Bases in Italy UNLESS the Beretta entry was selected.

I have a feeling that the M1911 will still be in production a century from now. The M1911 is a great design!

 

[Bob Owen]

You're right on with that about being rigged with Beretta. If you cannot stop a fight with a 1911, you just can't shoot.

 

[johan_steele]

As superb as the 1911 is I prefer the High Power by the same designer. It's interesting that both are such superb designs and both are still in production and service... John Browning may well have been the greatest firearms designer in history.

 

[dvrmte]

I agree about John Browning being possibly the best but he has some competition out there. I wonder how long the Kalishnikov assault rifles and it's variants will remain in production? 1947- ? It still is one of the least expensive and easiest to operate and manufacture in mass quantities.

The 1911 is a man stopper and easy to handle for shooters with all levels of skills.

 

[Southron Sr.]

While the Kalishnikov is a GOOD design (even IF he more or less copied the Garand firing assembly) it is still just one BASIC design that has been used for a variety of arms.

John M. Browning not only designed the M1911 but also the Model 1892 Winchester Rifle, the BAR of WWII and Korea fame, the .30 and .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun designs and the list goes on and on.

Whenever I read the story of how many years and years it took John C. Garand and the Springfield Armory to design and build the M-1 Garand Rifle, I can't but help thinking: "If the government had given the job of designing a new service rifle to John M. Browning he could have designed a service rifle as good as or better than the Garand in a couple of weeks."

This is not to take anything away from John C. Garand, but Browning was simply a genius.

 

[Bob Owen]

The AK-47 and it's platforms are very well widespread throughout the world due to the fact that it is cheap and easy to produce even by third world countries. It doesn't take much training to fire the weapon as it is mainly a spray down range weapon. It is not accurate in it's semi-auto mode and the sniper version is no match for our sniper systems. You cannot get much more reliability in an assault weapon system. I still prefer the AR platforms, but also would like to see what John Browning could have done for a shoulder fired battle rifle.

 

[johan_steele]

2" group @ 200 meters out of an AK74 is not inaccurate. The "sniper" versions of the AK are not sniper rifles anymore than a scoped Garand is. What they are is reliable, accurate enough for combat environs and ridiculously robust. Simplicity & reliability are advanatges all their own. AR platform... while readily available their reliability and accuracy (civilian models) doesn't match any of the mil spec AKs I've fired.

There is a reason the Russians haven't replaced the AK sys in more than half a century, the replacements aren't enough of an improvement. And every replacement cantidate presented in the last go around for the AR was a piston driven sys instead of a direct gas... says something I think.

 

[bama46]

While the Kalishnikov is a GOOD design (even IF he more or less copied the Garand firing assembly) it is still just one BASIC design that has been used for a variety of arms.

John M. Browning not only designed the M1911 but also the Model 1892 Winchester Rifle, the BAR of WWII and Korea fame, the .30 and .50 caliber Browning Machine Gun designs and the list goes on and on.

Whenever I read the story of how many years and years it took John C. Garand and the Springfield Armory to design and build the M-1 Garand Rifle, I can't but help thinking: "If the government had given the job of designing a new service rifle to John M. Browning he could have designed a service rifle as good as or better than the Garand in a couple of weeks."

This is not to take anything away from John C. Garand, but Browning was simply a genius.

This is what makes Bro Browning heads and sholdiers above allother gun designers. Most had one really good gun in them whereas John Moses Browning had hundreds of designs floating around... handguns, shotguns, battle rifles, machine guns, civilian guns, military hardware.. about the only thing he did not design was Buck Rogers' ray gun.. The man's genius spread over his entirel lifetime.

There are only a very few differences between the hi-power and the 1911, but they are significant. Fixed, vs floating barrel, lack of a grip safety, 9mm vs .45ACP, increased magazine capacity... Browning said he preferred the hi-power... I prefer the 1911..

 

[Bob Owen]

You are right on that a 2" group at 200 meters is not inaccurate. The reality is if the AK74 can get 2" at 100 meters that would be a wonder. The Drugonov was designed as a sniper on the AK design, but fired the 7.62X54R. It was mildly accurate, but a M1D Garand sniper rifle is capable of superb accuracy. I have a heavy barrel Colt Match Target AR15 that shoots half minute of angle groups all day long. An average mil spec AK is lucky to shoot consistant 4" groups at 100 meters. The AK is a great tool but far from a precision instrument. It does exactly what it was designed for very well.

2" group @ 200 meters out of an AK74 is not inaccurate. The "sniper" versions of the AK are not sniper rifles anymore than a scoped Garand is. What they are is reliable, accurate enough for combat environs and ridiculously robust. Simplicity & reliability are advanatges all their own. AR platform... while readily available their reliability and accuracy (civilian models) doesn't match any of the mil spec AKs I've fired.

There is a reason the Russians haven't replaced the AK sys in more than half a century, the replacements aren't enough of an improvement. And every replacement cantidate presented in the last go around for the AK was a piston driven sys instead of a direct gas... says something I think.

 

[johan_steele]

Milspec vs civilian, a GI doesn't carry a heavy barrel Colt Match Target AR15. he carries an M4 or M16... my own experiance w/ off the armory wall M16's... gak. I have fired off the rack AK74's, more than one from a variety of arsenals. 2" group at 200 meters for the mil spec ones I've handled. Depends on who built it, a whole lot like a civilian AR. A Les Baer is a whole lot better than a DPMS... I'll take the Les Baer. There is an ageless argument of which is better, the AK or AR platform. If it came to it I'll take a SIG, which is what you would get if the Swiss had designed the AK. As I said, none of the latest replacement options for the M16 series were a direct gas, all were piston driven.

Have you ever fired an SVD? I have and it was probably the smoothest firing most comfortable weapon I have ever fired. It isn't a bolt action rifle, it wasn't designed for .2 MOA accuracy but putting a round into a mans chest out to 800 meters in a combat environment. It isn't an AK, any who think it is haven't handled one.

The AK was designed for an illiterate peasent to learn and use in minutes and it does so superbly. The AR was designed for light weight... give me what it was designed to replace, an M14, thank you very much.

 

[Republican Blues]

Ok, my .02 cents, and as a mod on another forum says, "others mileage may vary"

I never had a serious complaint with the M16 system. Carrying one for a living, I thought it was a great weapon. My only complaint would probably be the star chamber, as it is a difficult area to clean well. I never had a weapon induced problem with accuracy, if anything my marksmanship suffered more from the PASGT helmet, which had a tendency to kick forward in a prone position, making it difficult to get a good sight picture. If anything, the M16 system takes a lot more training to use than the AK series, but that is the nature of the AK, mass exportation to advance the Communist Revolution LOL. I think the best thing the Army ever did, in regard to the M16 was to go to the A2 and later iterations, with the heavier barrel. the Rear sight is a bit more complicated, and to switch to the Advanced Combat Helmet which has a better profile for Basic Rifle Marksmanship. All in all, I rather miss my weapon, but must admit, not shooting regularly anymore, and the only weapons i own (a P.53 Enfield, Henry, and 1849 Colt Pocket) are for reenacting, I dont really have a need for an M16/AR15.

 

[Bob Owen]

I've owned and shot three SVD's but never could get one to print a descent group. It is a sweet shooting gun and one problem is the lack of accurate match ammo for it. I started out with the AK craze because they were cheap and the ammo was cheap. I enjoy them, but when I started going to Camp Perry a few decades ago, I switched to the Garand, then the M1A1, and now the AR National Match. I'm getting a liitle long in the tooth and a day on the range with anything that kicks stonger than the 5.56 wears me down. I guess it's a gun for every taste these days. Thanks for the comments.

Milspec vs civilian, a GI doesn't carry a heavy barrel Colt Match Target AR15. he carries an M4 or M16... my own experiance w/ off the armory wall M16's... gak. I have fired off the rack AK74's, more than one from a variety of arsenals. 2" group at 200 meters for the mil spec ones I've handled. Depends on who built it, a whole lot like a civilian AR. A Les Baer is a whole lot better than a DPMS... I'll take the Les Baer. There is an ageless argument of which is better, the AK or AR platform. If it came to it I'll take a SIG, which is what you would get if the Swiss had designed the AK. As I said, none of the latest replacement options for the M16 series were a direct gas, all were piston driven.

Have you ever fired an SVD? I have and it was probably the smoothest firing most comfortable weapon I have ever fired. It isn't a bolt action rifle, it wasn't designed for .2 MOA accuracy but putting a round into a mans chest out to 800 meters in a combat environment. It isn't an AK, any who think it is haven't handled one.

The AK was designed for an illiterate peasent to learn and use in minutes and it does so superbly. The AR was designed for light weight... give me what it was designed to replace, an M14, thank you very much.

 

[Bob Owen]

I carried a Colt Kar15 in my Cobra in Vietnam and it was a sweet little gun. You did have to keep it cleaned well. When I got to fire the A2, it was a world of difference. I never understood why the Army went to the 3 round burst model and then back to the original full auto fire. I went to AH-1G Cobra gunship school at Hunter Army Airfield at Savannah in 1970. Is the Boar's Head Bar still down on the river?

Ok, my .02 cents, and as a mod on another forum says, "others mileage may vary"

I never had a serious complaint with the M16 system. Carrying one for a living, I thought it was a great weapon. My only complaint would probably be the star chamber, as it is a difficult area to clean well. I never had a weapon induced problem with accuracy, if anything my marksmanship suffered more from the PASGT helmet, which had a tendency to kick forward in a prone position, making it difficult to get a good sight picture. If anything, the M16 system takes a lot more training to use than the AK series, but that is the nature of the AK, mass exportation to advance the Communist Revolution LOL. I think the best thing the Army ever did, in regard to the M16 was to go to the A2 and later iterations, with the heavier barrel. the Rear sight is a bit more complicated, and to switch to the Advanced Combat Helmet which has a better profile for Basic Rifle Marksmanship. All in all, I rather miss my weapon, but must admit, not shooting regularly anymore, and the only weapons i own (a P.53 Enfield, Henry, and 1849 Colt Pocket) are for reenacting, I dont really have a need for an M16/AR15.

 

[bama46]

I carried a Colt Kar15 in my Cobra in Vietnam and it was a sweet little gun. You did have to keep it cleaned well. When I got to fire the A2, it was a world of difference. I never understood why the Army went to the 3 round burst model and then back to the original full auto fire. I went to AH-1G Cobra gunship school at Hunter Army Airfield at Savannah in 1970. Is the Boar's Head Bar still down on the river?

I presume you took your basic chopper training at Rucker.

 

[Republican Blues]

Bob,

I dont recall a Boars Head, but Next time we are on River Street I'll check it out.. Our Favorite haunt is Kevin Barry's.

 

[Bob Owen]

Camp Walters, Texas and Fort Rucker. Class of 1968

I presume you took your basic chopper training at Rucker.

 

[Bob Owen]

Check it out for me. Thanks. I'm not familiar with Kevin Barry's but would like to try it next time I'm down that way.

Bob,

I dont recall a Boars Head, but Next time we are on River Street I'll check it out.. Our Favorite haunt is Kevin Barry's.

 

[Republican Blues]

Kevin Barry's is a great little Irish pub, and very supportive of the military (the upstairs is dedicated to America's Heros) and they have a kick butt menu, with an outstanding Shepherds Pie and Guinness on tap.

 

[Bob Owen]

You've got my attention!

Kevin Barry's is a great little Irish pub, and very supportive of the military (the upstairs is dedicated to America's Heros) and they have a kick butt menu, with an outstanding Shepherds Pie and Guinness on tap.