Starr Model 1858 Army

[Ed Rowe]

@Ed Rowe Not trying to redirect the original post but have you ever ran across any documentation like this that listed any arms produced by Griswold & Gunnison, Spiller & Burr, etc.?

No, I haven't, but I was thinking there's a possibility the 27 Colts listed on that one document may have actually been Confederate Colts instead of genuine Colts. Would that include Griswold & Gunnison, Spiller & Burr and perhaps Leech & Rigdon?

 

[Secessionist]

No, I haven't, but I was thinking there's a possibility the 27 Colts listed on that one document may have actually been Confederate Colts instead of genuine Colts. Would that include Griswold & Gunnison, Spiller & Burr and perhaps Leech & Rigdon?

I would agree. I'm thinking since the Colt Army and Navy models were so widely known, the Arsenal and Stores probably referred to the Confederate copies as "Colt's Patent" or "Colt's Pistol" as a generic term. They may have also referred to the Spiller & Burr in similar manner, as "Whitney's Pistol" but unfortunately we will never know to any certainty.

 

[Old Soldier]

The Starr revolvers seem to be more available on this side of The Pond. Apparently after the war the army standardised on Colts and the Starrs were sold off, many ending up in Europe many to the military. I have a 1863 SA Starr and find it rather barrel heavy.

Although the single-action solved many of the DA actions problems, that extra 2" of barrel seriously affected the balance, especially noticeable when trying a 'gun-hand' cock - the muzzle droops dramatically. I sure it is a perfectly serviceable, efficient handgun, but I am used to the 6" barrelled Tranters and Adams revolvers. Maybe one day I will be able to afford a 1861 DA Starr to compare it to, but until then ...
This one was not perfect, but I got it working reasonably well (damage to one of the ratchet wedges on the cylinder) - and got it a new grip as the older, battered one did not help the handling.

 

[Folson]

I've always thought the Starr Model 1858 and 1863 revolvers were neat looking. Big. Solid. A size and weight that conveys power. Try as I might I've never been able to find one for a reasonable price in decent condition until now.

As usual, I refer to College Hill Arsenal for the background information on these revolvers:

The Starr Model 1858 Army revolver was a 6 shot, .44 caliber revolver with a 6" round barrel. The .44 M1858 "Army" revolver was produced from 1861 through 1863, when production of the Model 1863 superseded the Model 1858. Starr was the third largest provider of revolvers to the US government during the course of the American Civil War, with only Colt and Remington delivering more handguns. The Starr M1858 saw significant service with the US military during the Civil War.

The initial US government purchases of M1858 revolvers were made by the Navy, who purchased the .36 caliber version of the pistol. Army procurements were initiated in the summer of 1861, with the first revolvers being delivered in January of 1862. Over a three-year period, Starr delivered 21,050 of the M1858 revolvers, with 9,900 accepted in 1862, 6,200 in 1863 and 4,950 in 1864.

The guns saw use with more than 40 different US mounted regiments, including in part the 1st Arkansas Cavalry, 2nd California Cavalry, 1st, 2nd & 3rd Colorado Cavalry, 10th, 13th& 16th Illinois Cavalry, 2nd, 3rd & 5th Indiana Cavalry, 5th, 8th, 11th & 12th Kentucky Cavalry, 11th & 12th New York Cavalry, 2nd & 4th Ohio Cavalry, 2nd – 8th Missouri State Militia Cavalry, 13th Tennessee Cavalry, 1st & 2nd Tennessee Mounted Infantry and 1st Wisconsin Cavalry.

The revolvers received mixed reports from the men that used them in the field, with one of the most damning comments coming from an officer with the 12th Kentucky Cavalry, who noted:

"The man who sold these pistols to the government and the contractor who bought them ought to be hanged as traitors."

While the design was innovative for its time, the self-cocking mechanism was delicate and expensive and lead to the Starr company dropping the model in preference of a cheaper and more robust single action design, the Model 1863. Although referred to as a "double action" revolver, the large trigger actually only cocked the hammer and rotated the cylinder but did not actually fire the gun. Pulling the large trigger all the way to the rear pressed a very tiny, recessed extension that actually tripped the sear and released the hammer to fire the gun.

This example is in very good condition and is all matching. I have not been able to locate production records or estimates yet, but the serial number on this example, 6111, leads me to believe it is a relatively early production model.

I welcome any information you may have on production numbers, etc., and any other information on these innovative, hefty and somewhat controversial weapons.

Here is my new-to-me Starr Model 1858 Army revolver.

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Wow that looks really nice. I just purchased a DA but in trying to source parts has been a challenge. Anyway do you know if the Pietta parts will work?

 

[Folson]

Wow thats a great looking M1858.... I just picked up for restoration but sourcing parts has been a challenge. Anyway does any one know if the reproduction parts fit? IE Pietta

 

[scooter748driver]

Wow that looks really nice. I just purchased a DA but in trying to source parts has been a challenge. Anyway do you know if the Pietta parts will work?

I am not sure if they would work or not.

 

[Old Soldier]

There is only one way to find out. Get a few of the cheaper ones and fit them. It does depend on which parts are needed - and which original parts (springs) can be 'tweaked'. They may well need some 'adjustment' they are not always interchangable. Colt parts, for example, fit reasonably well, but they may be a little wider or longer than the originals. It is just a matter of fractions, but it does make life difficult - do I file ... nor not?

The new grip on mine is a Pietta, but 'in the rough'. It fitted reasonably well after some adjustment of the outer profile but the original fixing screw through from back to front seems on the long side and pokes out a bit - IOW the internal frame inletting is a little .. lax. I am sure a little walnut veneer would help, especially since the front strap seems a little too inletted (not by me!!). Once you start fiddling, you have to stop somewhere - you learn by your mistakes.

 

[Championhilz]

The 4th Iowa Cavalry was armed with Starr Revolvers, and William F. Scott, adjutant of the regiment, had a lot to say about them:

The remainder of the clothing, blankets, and horse equipments required were now issued, together with camp equipage, tents, and wagons. And to the heavy dragoon sabres were added firearms. But what arms! About four hundred men were loaded with 'Austrian' rifles, a very heavy and clumsy, though rather short, infantry gun, a muzzle-loader, with a ramrod. Half the remainder had Starr's revolver, a five-shooter, percussion-cap and paper-cartridge pistol, of a bad pattern and poorly made, while all, or nearly all, received a pair of horse-pistols, to be carried in holsters on the pommel of the saddle, the smooth-bore, single-barreled, muzzle-loader used in the Mexican War.

These rifles and revolvers never gained favor in the regiment; indeed, it is probable that they did more harm than good, because there was a general want of reliance upon them. The Starr revolver caused more fear in the regiment than it ever did among the enemy. Its shot was very uncertain, its machinery often failed to work, and it had a vicious tendency to go off at the wrong moment. The holster pistols were better thought of. They were found to be more effective than the revolvers, and far more easily managed than the rifles. Many of them were retained until the Colt's revolvers came, in 1863.

- The Story of A Cavalry Regiment, page 25

 

[Old Soldier]

The 4th Iowa Cavalry was armed with Starr Revolvers, and William F. Scott, adjutant of the regiment, had a lot to say about them:

The remainder of the clothing, blankets, and horse equipments required were now issued, together with camp equipage, tents, and wagons. And to the heavy dragoon sabres were added firearms. But what arms! About four hundred men were loaded with 'Austrian' rifles, a very heavy and clumsy, though rather short, infantry gun, a muzzle-loader, with a ramrod. Half the remainder had Starr's revolver, a five-shooter, percussion-cap and paper-cartridge pistol, of a bad pattern and poorly made, while all, or nearly all, received a pair of horse-pistols, to be carried in holsters on the pommel of the saddle, the smooth-bore, single-barreled, muzzle-loader used in the Mexican War.

These rifles and revolvers never gained favor in the regiment; indeed, it is probable that they did more harm than good, because there was a general want of reliance upon them. The Starr revolver caused more fear in the regiment than it ever did among the enemy. Its shot was very uncertain, its machinery often failed to work, and it had a vicious tendency to go off at the wrong moment. The holster pistols were better thought of. They were found to be more effective than the revolvers, and far more easily managed than the rifles. Many of them were retained until the Colt's revolvers came, in 1863.

- The Story of A Cavalry Regiment, page 25

That does not sound like the 1858 model which was often described as 'well-made' but was a DA that had reliability problems - and it was a six-shooter. It could only be cocked by the trigger, not the hammer spur!! In general, the 5-shot .44 revolvers were British - and reliable - if virtually impossible to maintain and repair. For more technical info -

Gift from an Advanced Alien Race? The 1858 Starr Revolver - American Handgunner

If we go by the historical record alone, the cap and ball Model 1858 Starr Revolver had to be the most advanced American handgun issued during the Civil War while simultaneously being the least popular.

americanhandgunner.com

I have seen an ad for a Bonhams auction for "A Five-Shot Percussion Starr Arms 1863 Model Army Revolver" - but mine is certainly a six-shot and theirs had a totally different cylinder - not the 'patent' one' - with no halfcock safety lock notches in the cylinder:
.

It does have Starr patents marks but it is more likely to be a Belgian copy. It certainly isn't a Starr M1863. No, it cannot be a simple 'conversion' - a new cylinder - as the sweep of the arm would have to be altered too.

 

[bayonet]

The 4th Iowa Cavalry was armed with Starr Revolvers, and William F. Scott, adjutant of the regiment, had a lot to say about them:

The remainder of the clothing, blankets, and horse equipments required were now issued, together with camp equipage, tents, and wagons. And to the heavy dragoon sabres were added firearms. But what arms! About four hundred men were loaded with 'Austrian' rifles, a very heavy and clumsy, though rather short, infantry gun, a muzzle-loader, with a ramrod. Half the remainder had Starr's revolver, a five-shooter, percussion-cap and paper-cartridge pistol, of a bad pattern and poorly made, while all, or nearly all, received a pair of horse-pistols, to be carried in holsters on the pommel of the saddle, the smooth-bore, single-barreled, muzzle-loader used in the Mexican War.

These rifles and revolvers never gained favor in the regiment; indeed, it is probable that they did more harm than good, because there was a general want of reliance upon them. The Starr revolver caused more fear in the regiment than it ever did among the enemy. Its shot was very uncertain, its machinery often failed to work, and it had a vicious tendency to go off at the wrong moment. The holster pistols were better thought of. They were found to be more effective than the revolvers, and far more easily managed than the rifles. Many of them were retained until the Colt's revolvers came, in 1863.

- The Story of A Cavalry Regiment, page 25

And an Officer of the 12th Kentucky said "The man who sold these pistols to the government and the contractor who bought them ought to be hanged as traitors".

 

[504PIR]

Interesting observations by Adjutant Scott. I did a lot of research on the Starr before I bought mine. I have a Model of 1858 Army in .44 Cal and it's very well made, shoots great, once I learned how it operates. It is a 6 shot cylinder. My research showed all 3 models(.36 Cal Navy, Army .44 Double Action & the Single Action) were 6 shots. Not sure what Scott was describing, but it does not sound like a Starr.

 

[johan_steele]

Keep in mind many of these writers were in no way knowledgeable about firearms. No different than today when some supposed experts have never handled what they profess to be experts about.

My own experience with the Starr has been generally positive. And I've seen enough cartridge conversion to know at least some thought them worthwhile.

 

[Folson]

There is only one way to find out. Get a few of the cheaper ones and fit them. It does depend on which parts are needed - and which original parts (springs) can be 'tweaked'. They may well need some 'adjustment' they are not always interchangable. Colt parts, for example, fit reasonably well, but they may be a little wider or longer than the originals. It is just a matter of fractions, but it does make life difficult - do I file ... nor not?

The new grip on mine is a Pietta, but 'in the rough'. It fitted reasonably well after some adjustment of the outer profile but the original fixing screw through from back to front seems on the long side and pokes out a bit - IOW the internal frame inletting is a little .. lax. I am sure a little walnut veneer would help, especially since the front strap seems a little too inletted (not by me!!). Once you start fiddling, you have to stop somewhere - you learn by your mistakes.

Thanks again. Its been awhile and still no luck in sourcing parts. I can find screws and a cylinder Original but out of stock Ha! Will try some of the copy parts and see if they can be modified but its not looking good Ha!

 

[Folson]

Thanks again. Its been awhile and still no luck in sourcing parts. I can find screws and a cylinder Original but out of stock Ha! Will try some of the copy parts and see if they can be modified but its not looking good Ha!