My $5000 mistake - long read.

[scooter748driver]

It is with a good deal of embarrassment that I post this thread. However, I am doing so because 1) it is cathartic, 2) I hope that others may learn from my mistake, and 3) to reinforce the adage "buy the books first" which is the mantra of many members here, @Lanyard Puller and @UCVRelics being but two.

So, what happened you ask? I'll tell you.

I decided to thin out some items from my "collection" to free up some funds for use around the new homestead, make room in the small safe, and to purchase what, for me, is a "grail" gun; a Colt Dragoon. I have looked at them for years and always thought their size, weight and heft would make one a cornerstone for my meager collection. So I set off down the road to purchase one.

I read the books - no, I really did! I read books on the Colt Walker by Pate (as first model Dragoons are basically a modified Walker), books with solid and thorough information on the Dragoon by Severn & Metzger, Longfield & Basnett, etc.. I read books with historical info on the Dragoon like Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 by Garavaglia & Worman, and others. I read numerous articles on the internet by reputable people. I read threads here to glean even more knowledge. I know the importance of researching any antique gun purchase, and especially one with such a significant price tag. In short, I felt I knew enough to confidently make a sound purchase/investment.

I then conducted a thorough search for the right gun. One that would be a sound and solid example of this historic tank of a revolver. I looked at various sites that commonly sell modern guns but had several Dragoons for sale, just to get an idea of what was on the market and asking prices. I then searched numerous site of reputable and well-know vendors. People who you can believe when they say what and how a gun is. I point this out to say that this wasn't an emotional or spur of the moment action. I was cool and calculated. After all, I've been doing this for a couple of years now. I know what I'm doing...right?

Finally, after weeks of research and study, I found "the one" that I felt met all my criteria. I was confident and excited when I called to reserve it and sent payment. A week or so later it arrived. Awesome! Couldn't be happier. I felt that my research and efforts had borne good fruit. In my excitement I searched the internet for this particular Dragoon without success. However, while doing so I stumbled upon the email of renown author Charles Pate (whose books on the Colt 1860 and the Colt Walker as well as various other articles I have read). Cool! My understanding was/is that Mr. Pate is writing a book on the Dragoon, so let me share my good fortune with him and send a few pictures so he can revel in my good fortune.

Let me pause a moment to say that Mr. Pate is both a scholar and a gentleman. He replied the next day to my email and pictures I sent unsolicited to him. He kindly thanked me for my pictures and let me know that he had pictures of that particular Dragoon already. Pictures to show how messed up a Dragoon can really be! What?!!! There's no way! I did my research! I was diligent! Thorough! Calculating. How could I have erred?

My Pate pointed out to me the "faults" with this particular gun. First, the font of a couple of the digits on the barrel serial number were just slightly different that the others on the gun. Something I never noticed even though I looked (no, I swear I really did!) But once he pointed it out it was as obvious as could be. Dang. How had I missed that? He also gently let me know that the barrel was likely a replacement and not one made by Colt. Huh? I didn't even know that was a possibility! Finally, he pointed out various other small items that were replaced on the gun well after it was made. While all guns can have replacement parts, these were a bit too many for my liking (and his thankfully).

The smartest thing I did in this whole evolution was to purchase from an established and reputable dealer. While they specialize mainly in a gun maker other than Colt, their reputation, selection, and professionalism made me confident when I purchased the Dragoon from them. After my disheartening (let's be honest, I was nauseous) conversation with Mr. Pate, I emailed the vendor I purchased the Dragoon from letting them know the issues with the gun and who had identified them. To their great credit, they admitted to not be experts on Colts but had listed it fairly. I think they did too, but they - like me - were not aware of these issues. Again to their great credit, they recommended I send the Dragoon back for a full refund. That's what I did. My payment was refunded to me a few days later, in full. Whew!

So boys & girls, what did scooter748driver learn in all this?

- First, you can never do enough research, especially on more rare or unique guns. I felt very well educated on this model Colt, yet missed what should have been obvious signs that required a real expert to point out.

- Second, it pays to get the opinion of others. Had I not randomly stumbled upon his email (and been so conceded as to send him unsolicited pictures), I would be sitting here today with a $5,000 re-stamped parts gun. For such a large purchase experts are invaluable - and we have some of them right here among us thankfully!

- Finally, buy from a reputable source. I can't imagine how this might have turned out had I purchased from a lesser source. I suspect I'd have been left holding the bag (gun) with nothing but regret and anger to show for it.

I apologize for the length of this thread, but I wanted to share my mistake and, ultimately, good fortune in hopes that others may prosper from it and not repeat it. I'm still in the market for a Colt Dragoon albeit a bit hesitantly now. I'll keep researching, looking, etc. and one day, hopefully, I'll find "the one" that's right for me.

Thanks for reading. Your "mistake" stories and not only welcomed but encouraged. We can all learn from the mistakes of others - me most of all!

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

All's well that ends well.
If that revolver has an actual Dragoon frame and the repairs/replaced parts are reasonably correct, it still would be an interesting gun with it's own history. The bad part is that someone tried to fake it with the serial numbers. That's a rotten thing to do. Maybe that company that has it now should stamp an "R" after the number on the barrel.
It would be worth a whole lot less than an original one, but someone will still want it. Did it function ok?

 

[lupaglupa]

I started this thinking it was going to end with you permanently out of 5K. Thankfully you were only temporarily out of all that cash. There's a reason even non Latin speakers know the words caveat emptor.

 

[gjpratt]

I have a similar experience except Ii didn't find out until I tried to sell the item many years later. By then the dealer, who I considered honest and reputable, had passed away. I guess you can say all was well that ended well to an extent. The item is now in my unlocked cabinet as an exemplar of a well done but still fake. Along with a well done Froelich staff & field and McElroy cav officer, both of which I knowingly acquired as fakes that I could use as comparators.

 

[gjpratt]

And thanks for this insightful and introspective mea culpa. It is a good lesson for all collectors of all experience levels.

 

[JackADriscoll]

A story all collectors should read.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

Perhaps this thread title could be more aptly renamed, 'My almost $5,000 mistake - lessons learned'. (After all, the money was returned).

 

[R. Porter]

I would go with a title about a close call. You did research. You're not an expert and can't expect to become one in a limited amount of time with a limited exposure to the object of research. You did learn enough to ask the right person and to understand his response. You also chose to deal with a reputable business.

So it would appear that you did the right things. There are hundreds of variables in the acquisition of an object. Some of these involve the order in which you do things. Some of these involve the number of times you execute a sequence of steps. Some of these depend on the amount of research necessary. Some of these depend on the perceived value of an object. No expert is perfect. Nobody knows all the variables. You did take some key steps and you were able to show why they were key steps. Finally, you shared your experience with others; an experience that can be applied across the board when dealing with the acquisition of any type of collectible objects.

I would say that's a win for everyone on CWT. Even the original dealer who took it back has boosted their reputation for honesty.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

An important part of your education was learning how easy it was to fail to see the difference in the serial numbering. You looked carefully but only after Charlie Pate directed your attention to this did you see this. And once seen, it was obvious.
The other clues he saw were likely not visible to a non-expert, but your eyes could see this once you were directed to look.
In my decades of collecting and watching folks look at Colts, this is a common pattern.
I can't explain it but it is common to see what we hope to see!

 

[Salterr]

You had me on the edge of my seat the whole time!! I'm glad you were able to get your money back. I had a run in with a fake set of shoulder boards at the Franklin show one time. I saw them, examined them and there were a few things that stood out as strange to me but the price was good. I questioned the dealer and he guaranteed they came from a museum that closed. I bought them and walked around constantly touching the boards and looking at them. I even smelled them and couldn't get it out of my mind that they were no good. I had never seen a triple border set that wasn't obviously a new make or completely wrong before in manufacturing styles when it came to replicas but this was well executed for sure. Evenly Tarnished bullion, open back construction. It was the thickness of the boards that bothered me the most and sure enough I took them to union drummer boy and he held them all of 10 seconds and said no good!! I knew it, I just had that feeling something wasn't right. I also was able to get my money back. No matter how long we study or how long we collect there's always something that'll get us at least once. Any person who says they haven't been fooled at least once isn't a collector!!

 

[13 IL Cav & 64 GA Inf]

It is with a good deal of embarrassment that I post this thread. However, I am doing so because 1) it is cathartic, 2) I hope that others may learn from my mistake, and 3) to reinforce the adage "buy the books first" which is the mantra of many members here, @Lanyard Puller and @UCVRelics being but two.

So, what happened you ask? I'll tell you.

I decided to thin out some items from my "collection" to free up some funds for use around the new homestead, make room in the small safe, and to purchase what, for me, is a "grail" gun; a Colt Dragoon. I have looked at them for years and always thought their size, weight and heft would make one a cornerstone for my meager collection. So I set off down the road to purchase one.

I read the books - no, I really did! I read books on the Colt Walker by Pate (as first model Dragoons are basically a modified Walker), books with solid and thorough information on the Dragoon by Severn & Metzger, Longfield & Basnett, etc.. I read books with historical info on the Dragoon like Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 by Garavaglia & Worman, and others. I read numerous articles on the internet by reputable people. I read threads here to glean even more knowledge. I know the importance of researching any antique gun purchase, and especially one with such a significant price tag. In short, I felt I knew enough to confidently make a sound purchase/investment.

I then conducted a thorough search for the right gun. One that would be a sound and solid example of this historic tank of a revolver. I looked at various sites that commonly sell modern guns but had several Dragoons for sale, just to get an idea of what was on the market and asking prices. I then searched numerous site of reputable and well-know vendors. People who you can believe when they say what and how a gun is. I point this out to say that this wasn't an emotional or spur of the moment action. I was cool and calculated. After all, I've been doing this for a couple of years now. I know what I'm doing...right?

Finally, after weeks of research and study, I found "the one" that I felt met all my criteria. I was confident and excited when I called to reserve it and sent payment. A week or so later it arrived. Awesome! Couldn't be happier. I felt that my research and efforts had borne good fruit. In my excitement I searched the internet for this particular Dragoon without success. However, while doing so I stumbled upon the email of renown author Charles Pate (whose books on the Colt 1860 and the Colt Walker as well as various other articles I have read). Cool! My understanding was/is that Mr. Pate is writing a book on the Dragoon, so let me share my good fortune with him and send a few pictures so he can revel in my good fortune.

Let me pause a moment to say that Mr. Pate is both a scholar and a gentleman. He replied the next day to my email and pictures I sent unsolicited to him. He kindly thanked me for my pictures and let me know that he had pictures of that particular Dragoon already. Pictures to show how messed up a Dragoon can really be! What?!!! There's no way! I did my research! I was diligent! Thorough! Calculating. How could I have erred?

My Pate pointed out to me the "faults" with this particular gun. First, the font of a couple of the digits on the barrel serial number were just slightly different that the others on the gun. Something I never noticed even though I looked (no, I swear I really did!) But once he pointed it out it was as obvious as could be. Dang. How had I missed that? He also gently let me know that the barrel was likely a replacement and not one made by Colt. Huh? I didn't even know that was a possibility! Finally, he pointed out various other small items that were replaced on the gun well after it was made. While all guns can have replacement parts, these were a bit too many for my liking (and his thankfully).

The smartest thing I did in this whole evolution was to purchase from an established and reputable dealer. While they specialize mainly in a gun maker other than Colt, their reputation, selection, and professionalism made me confident when I purchased the Dragoon from them. After my disheartening (let's be honest, I was nauseous) conversation with Mr. Pate, I emailed the vendor I purchased the Dragoon from letting them know the issues with the gun and who had identified them. To their great credit, they admitted to not be experts on Colts but had listed it fairly. I think they did too, but they - like me - were not aware of these issues. Again to their great credit, they recommended I send the Dragoon back for a full refund. That's what I did. My payment was refunded to me a few days later, in full. Whew!

So boys & girls, what did scooter748driver learn in all this?

- First, you can never do enough research, especially on more rare or unique guns. I felt very well educated on this model Colt, yet missed what should have been obvious signs that required a real expert to point out.

- Second, it pays to get the opinion of others. Had I not randomly stumbled upon his email (and been so conceded as to send him unsolicited pictures), I would be sitting here today with a $5,000 re-stamped parts gun. For such a large purchase experts are invaluable - and we have some of them right here among us thankfully!

- Finally, buy from a reputable source. I can't imagine how this might have turned out had I purchased from a lesser source. I suspect I'd have been left holding the bag (gun) with nothing but regret and anger to show for it.

I apologize for the length of this thread, but I wanted to share my mistake and, ultimately, good fortune in hopes that others may prosper from it and not repeat it. I'm still in the market for a Colt Dragoon albeit a bit hesitantly now. I'll keep researching, looking, etc. and one day, hopefully, I'll find "the one" that's right for me.

Thanks for reading. Your "mistake" stories and not only welcomed but encouraged. We can all learn from the mistakes of others - me most of all!

Good post, Scooter!

 

[tmorr]

Glad it worked out in the end. There are other dragoons out there! As an aside, Charles Pate is indeed a really good, and knowledgeable, man. I've had several interactions with him and his guidance is priceless.

 

[Gandycreek]

I bought a "Confederate" belt buckle off a Military dealer in
Pittsburgh Pa. A month Later I showed it to Steve Mullinax at the Richmond show. He gave it the big "thumbs down". Luckily I took it Back to the dealer and explained what happened and he refunded my money, which was a considerable amount at the time. This being 20+ years Ago. The dealer still thought it was real and put it back in his case for sale ! I never went back to his shop again !

 

[Stryker65]

Whew indeed. The title of the post made it sound like you permanently lost that 5k. Good on ya for figuring it out!

 

[bayonet]

Made some mistakes too along the way but recovered nicely. Not counting the 6 pound cannonball that turned out to be a ore crushing ball many years ago, $30 down the drain. Made over a $5000 mistake on a Brown Bess Rev War musket. From a honest dealer. This model was made from 1777 to later. Claimed Rev War usage. New research and just 2 little letters fore told this gunsmith worked after the Rev War up to 1792 (or was it 1796). Keeping my mouth shut I traded it back to him and upgraded to another Rev War Brown Bess he obtained giving him a few hundred more $. Alls well that ends well.

 

[Reverend Ron]

I know this is obvious, but we should remind our friends and family once in a while, that great care must be taken when selling any antique item. If a family heirloom has been passed down through multiple generations, the true present day value could be much, much more than the person currently in possession realizes.

This brings to mind a sort of "Custom Motorcycle Build Shop and Gun Store" I used to frequent 10 years ago. If the establishment also had a pool table, pin ball machine, and wet bar, it would have become my permanent home. One day I ended up purchasing a German Walther PP for $350. I bought the gun simply because I thought it was cool looking and was told a local farmer had brought it back from Germany after World War II.

Some months later I bumped into a (if you can believe this) "honest collector" at a gun show. After he carefully examined the Walther he placed the value at $2,500 or more. Those motorcycle guys knew Harley Davidsons backwards and forwards, but didn't know jack about old guns, but then neither did I.

Here's another quick story..... Back in the 1970's, I was scanning a cork Bulletin Board outside a dining room in the Pentagon, because I was looking for a used car for less than $250. I was hoping to find either a running Volkswagen Beetle or wrecked 66' Ford Mustang I could fix up. Instead I spotted a 3" x 5" index card tacked up on the board, that simply said: "German Luger For Sale", All Matching Serial Numbers $50". Get this,.... I debated whether or not to spend the $50 on the Luger : )

 

[Stryker65]

Here's another quick story..... Back in the 1970's, I was scanning a cork Bulletin Board outside a dining room in the Pentagon, because I was looking for a used car for less than $250. I was hoping to find either a running Volkswagen Beetle or wrecked 66' Ford Mustang I could fix up. Instead I spotted a 3" x 5" index card tacked up on the board, that simply said: "German Luger For Sale", All Matching Serial Numbers $50". Get this,.... I debated whether or not to spend the $50 on the Luger : )

In the Pentagon??? Are we talking about the same Pentagon??? Because they SHOULD know about guns!

 

[vmicraig]

I had a similar experience only with a private seller who sold me what was listed as a model 1851 cadet musket with provenance from a VMI cadet who fought at the battle of Newmarket. When I received said gun, it wasn't even a cadet model, although it was indeed owned by the VMI cadet who carried it, albeit there was no proof that weapon had been in Newmarket. It was certainly stamped 1851 on the lock plate, but was an 1847 model. In my haste to acquire an actual cadet musket from the family of a cadet from NewMarket, I didn't even conduct the most basic of verifications like asking for photos. Aside from the lockplate and the family histories.

Rightly so, the seller was very unwilling to refund the money despite advertising it specifically as an 1851 cadet model. Still, 100% of the fault was mine - I failed to do my own research to verify, and my eagerness to acquire the weapon trumped my due diligence. Good for you for taking all the logical steps you should have taken before purchasing the Dragoon. I'll never make the same mistake

 

[bayonet]

I had a similar experience only with a private seller who sold me what was listed as a model 1851 cadet musket with provenance from a VMI cadet who fought at the battle of Newmarket. When I received said gun, it wasn't even a cadet model, although it was indeed owned by the VMI cadet who carried it, albeit there was no proof that weapon had been in Newmarket. It was certainly stamped 1851 on the lock plate, but was an 1847 model. In my haste to acquire an actual cadet musket from the family of a cadet from NewMarket, I didn't even conduct the most basic of verifications like asking for photos. Aside from the lockplate and the family histories.

Rightly so, the seller was very unwilling to refund the money despite advertising it specifically as an 1851 cadet model. Still, 100% of the fault was mine - I failed to do my own research to verify, and my eagerness to acquire the weapon trumped my due diligence. Good for you for taking all the logical steps you should have taken before purchasing the Dragoon. I'll never make the same mistake

That's not rightly so! He advertised it incorrectly he should of taken it back with refund or at least refund you some $ back if you still kept the item. Traded an item with $ to a Dealer for a Spencer Carbine. After getting it the serial # was higher than posted pics. Honest mistake actually for depending how you held it and read the serial #s (with a small amount of wear on the #s) it was either several thousand #s higher or lower if you turned it around. Can't make this up! So I wanted to keep it but to keep me happy he gave me back $400.