Lee General RE Lee, CSA

[Elennsar]

You just can´t help yourself.

It's an unfortunate stain on American historiography. Lee's record even military is distorted by those writers playing down how many men he had and playing up the odds he faced.

Its a long and inglorious tradition for lionized generals, but Lee we see it done to the point one might suspect intentional dishonesty.

 

[cash]

You just can´t help yourself.

Yes, I have to introduce accuracy.

 

[Rebel from Finland]

It's an unfortunate stain on American historiography. Lee's record even military is distorted by those writers playing down how many men he had and playing up the odds he faced.

Its a long and inglorious tradition for lionized generals, but Lee we see it done to the point one might suspect intentional dishonesty.

Yeah, I know.. Shouldn´t have commented at all..

 

[KeyserSoze]

Why do you think Gen. RE Lee lionized by history and today? Is it for the battles he personally directed and won? According to some historians, wasn't the General was know as the King of Spades by the people of Richmond for his defensive stance around that city? Wasn't it at Malvern Hill where the General ordered repeated frontal assaults against well entrenched Union forces time and time again? Did defeat rest squarely in the lap of the General at Gettysburg where once again a frontal assault against prepared defenders almost carried the day but ended in failure and at great cost?

Please do not take my questions as being disrespectful of the General, I am just trying to understand if the myth did grow bigger than the man.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Better press.

Seriously, Lee was an excellent general. He made the most of what he had and some of his tactical decisions were brilliant. But one has to say that some of the height of the pedestal that Lee is on is due to the deliberate attempt to disparage the Union generals he opposed.

 

[Elennsar]

Yeah, I know.. Shouldn´t have commented at all..

Never be afraid to comment.

I just think that the element of how Lee's numbers have been played down has greatly impacted how his record is seen - Lee with equal or slightly superior numbers to McClellan in the Seven Days isn't quite as impressive as Lee with 85,000 men versus McClellan with 100,000+, to name one of the more appalling examples.

 

[Rebel from Finland]

Never be afraid to comment.

I just think that the element of how Lee's numbers have been played down has greatly impacted how his record is seen - Lee with equal or slightly superior numbers to McClellan in the Seven Days isn't quite as impressive as Lee with 85,000 men versus McClellan with 100,000+, to name one of the more appalling examples.

Nahh, it´s quite impressive still. If you take into account that he had to deal with the Union forces around the Valley at the same time.. And so he did I just got irritated, thats all..

 

[Elennsar]

Nahh, it´s quite impressive still. If you take into account that he had to deal with the Union forces around the Valley at the same time.. And so he did I just got irritated, thats all..

It is quite impressive still. Lee's record doesn't need embellishment to be a remarkable one, at least as a general.

Most successful Confederate general by far, and one of the most consistently successful in the war in general.

 

[Georgia Sixth]

Living longer was what happened to Grant. He should have been lionized as well but had an unfortunate presidency that made it easier to set Lee on top of him. Lee did represent what Southerners had lost, and in many ways he still does.

By the time Grant died, he was revered as the man who saved the union. More people viewed his body than did Lincoln's. It's amazing now that his tomb is virtually ignored. For years, it was the place to see on a visit to NYC.

 

[diane]

By the time Grant died, he was revered as the man who saved the union. More people viewed his body than did Lincoln's. It's amazing now that his tomb is virtually ignored. For years, it was the place to see on a visit to NYC.

Yes, it took some time after Grant's death for the strange downgrading. Grant's funeral was an enormous event and he was one of the great world figures. That's why it's so peculiar that he has to be revived now! It's especially important, too, to recall why saving the American union was so important worldwide.

 

[Georgia Sixth]

It would be an interesting study to see when his stature began to fall and see what concurrent events or trends might have helped change the nation's perception towards him or the military or the GOP.

 

[diane]

It would be an interesting study to see when his stature began to fall and see what concurrent events or trends might have helped change the nation's perception towards him or the military or the GOP.

I tend to think, although I haven't got anything to hand to really support this idea, it began around the time a lot of Confederate monuments were going up and the ban on wearing Confederate uniforms and flying the flags was lifted. It seemed around 1905 or so there were just a lot of events around Confederate veterans and various honors, mostly by the grandchildren. At least it seemed so!

 

[suzenatale]

By the time Grant died, he was revered as the man who saved the union. More people viewed his body than did Lincoln's. It's amazing now that his tomb is virtually ignored. For years, it was the place to see on a visit to NYC.

This conversation has me wondering if Grant has any flags in his tomb.

 

[Rebel from Finland]

By the time Grant died, he was revered as the man who saved the union. More people viewed his body than did Lincoln's. It's amazing now that his tomb is virtually ignored. For years, it was the place to see on a visit to NYC.

My brother visited New York about a year ago, and I tried to persuade him to go and see Grants tomb, and maybe place a little Finnish flag there. He said that it isn´t on his "to do-list" when in New York :/ Someday I will do it.

 

[Elennsar]

My brother visited New York about a year ago, and I tried to persuade him to go and see Grants tomb, and maybe place a little Finnish flag there. He said that it isn´t on his "to do-list" when in New York :/ Someday I will do it.

You are a good man.

I've never been to New York, so I haven't had the chance, and I've stated my view on flags and graves in another thread as far as anything I'll do, but positive thoughts towards the deserving dead (as opposed to say, Nicholas II, who might be pitiable but whose "doing my best for Russia" would mean abdication from the start) being expressed is always a good something.

 

[damYankee]

Just so we know what it looks like...

http://www.grantstomb.org/ind-gma.html

 

[Deleted member 8452]

Lee's overall record was wasn't that impressive: 3-5-2. The details: Won Seven Days, Chancellorsville, 2nd Mannasas. Losses: West Virginia, Malvern Hill, (part of Seven Days), Gettysburg, Overland Campaign, Petersburg. Draws: Antetam, Wilderness. But in the details we see he was fighting against overwhelming numbers and until the very end avoided the enemies' objectives.

But most importantly Lee drew the admiration and respect of his staff and common soldier, something which was invaluable to the ANV.

Hmmmm, you mixed Battles and Campaigns for his overall record, lets look at him at each battle he was at.

Cheat Mountain - Union
Oak Grove - Draw
Mechanicsville - Union
Gaines Mill - Confederate
Savage's Station - Draw
Frazier's Farm - Draw
Malvern Hill - Union
Second Manassas - Confederate
South Mountain - Union
Sharpsburg - Draw (even though i personally see this as a Union Victory, we will go with the CWT's outcome)
Fredericksburg - Confederate
Chancellorsville - Confederate
The Wilderness - Draw (even though i personally see this as a Confederate Victory, we will go with the CWT's outcome)
Spotsylvania Court House - Draw
North Anna - Draw
Cold Harbor - Confederate
Petersburg - Union
Appomattox and Saylor's Creek - Union

5 - 6- 7, with the odds he was facing i still say his victories were pretty impressive, but he did lose some battles, something Grant didn't do (Until Cold Harbor at least)

 

[Deleted member 8452]

"Oh, I am heartily sick of hearing what Lee is going to do. Some of you always seem to think that he is going to turn a double somersault, and land in our rear and on both of our flanks at the same time. Go back to your command, and try to think what we are going to do ourselves, instead of what Lee is going to do."
- U.S. Grant to his staff at the Battle of the Wilderness

Favorite Grant Quote LOL

I know Grant and Lee served together as young officers, but imagine them in their prime both with commands in the same army, best dynamic duo of Generals ever I'll tell you what!

 

[jgoodguy]

Hmmmm, you mixed Battles and Campaigns for his overall record, lets look at him at each battle he was at.

Cheat Mountain - Union
Oak Grove - Draw
Mechanicsville - Union
Gaines Mill - Confederate
Savage's Station - Draw
Frazier's Farm - Draw
Malvern Hill - Union
Second Manassas - Confederate
South Mountain - Union
Sharpsburg - Draw (even though i personally see this as a Union Victory, we will go with the CWT's outcome)
Fredericksburg - Confederate
Chancellorsville - Confederate
The Wilderness - Draw (even though i personally see this as a Confederate Victory, we will go with the CWT's outcome)
Spotsylvania Court House - Draw
North Anna - Draw
Cold Harbor - Confederate
Petersburg - Union
Appomattox and Saylor's Creek - Union

5 - 6- 7, with the odds he was facing i still say his victories were pretty impressive, but he did lose some battles, something Grant didn't do (Until Cold Harbor at least)

Sharpsburg/Antietam was a tactical draw, but strategic defeat for Lee.

In war of attrition like the American Civil War, draws are like losses for the side with the lesser resources. Even some victories like Chancellorsville are problematic because of the cost of men and material`.

 

[Deleted member 8452]

Sharpsburg/Antietam was a tactical draw, but strategic defeat for Lee.

In war of attrition like the American Civil War, draws are like losses for the side with the lesser resources. Even some victories like Chancellorsville are problematic because of the cost of men and material`.

I personally think Antietam is a Union Victory overall, Lee didn't really achieve much and was almost destroyed, he lost way too many good men at Antietam he could not replace.

 

[Elennsar]

I don't know if it was too bad a defeat in the sense of "too many good men", but the damage he did to the enemy didn't make up for the damage he suffered.

In absence of any clear cut accomplishment of any of his objectives, that's definitely a loss. Maybe not a disaster, but underdogs have to be able to do more with less - and he didn't quite make it, even if we count Harper's Ferry for "the campaign's results".