Difficult Topics

[cash]

Oh really, what was it then?

Being able to say who did what when.

 

[NedBaldwin]

Well.....he's the one who withdrew when they had the road open to get out of there, and Buckner was moving to support him....so exactly how does that make him blameless. Buckner just didn't want to add a bunch of dead guys to the roster (after it was too darned late to do anything). Does common sense not trump haplessness?

I havent said Pillow was blameless for what occurred during the battle.

From the National Park website:
"Pillow understood that when the avenue of escape opened, the troops would return to their rifle pits to secure baggage, artillery, rations, the water battery gunners, and other troops." Seems like common sense to not leave all the stuff behind.

 

[Nathanb1]

I havent said Pillow was blameless for what occurred during the battle.

From the National Park website:
"Pillow understood that when the avenue of escape opened, the troops would return to their rifle pits to secure baggage, artillery, rations, the water battery gunners, and other troops." Seems like common sense to not leave all the stuff behind.

Maybe you should read a different website. Seriously. You're missing a lot here.

 

[Rebforever]

 

[Elennsar]

Floyd intended the command to go to Buckner; Buckner and Floyd had already decided on surrender. Pillow as just a 3rd wheel with nothing left to do but tell Forrest to cut his way out.

http://www.civilwar.org/hallowed-ground-magazine/winter-2011/fort-donelson-surrender.html

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/civilwar/p/frdonelson.htm

And Army of the Heartland, by Thomas L. Connelly, just to name three.

None indicate Pillow being in the role you claim he had. So what is your source for the idea that Floyd skipped over Pillow and left him a "third wheel"?

Or that he did anything to influence Forrest's men escaping.

 

[NedBaldwin]

Maybe you should read a different website. Seriously. You're missing a lot here.

I dont think I am. I was just quoting that website becuase it was quicker than typing from a book.

 

[Lnwlf]

The Donelson affair really needs its own thread! Can the posts pertaining to it here be moved? I know it's a lot of work but I think in the long run it may be well worth the effort. I am afraid the original intent of the OP and the Donelson material will get lost in a maze of confusion.
Just a thought.

 

[Drew]

I think we're way far afield of the OP's intent. Not sure arguing about battles is what was meant by "difficult."

 

[NedBaldwin]

Forts Henry and Donelson: The Key to the Confederate Heartland, Benjamin Franklin Cooling, from page 203:

"Buckner was apparently the first to propose surrender. ... Buckner had obviously lost his grip as he ripped off a round of excuses ... Buckner was insensitive to any suggestion from Pillow ... Finally Floyd caved in ... Floyd asked Buckner, 'if I place you in command will you allow me to get out as much of my brigade as I can?'"

 

[TinCan]

Being able to say who did what when.

Your joking......

 

[NedBaldwin]

Or that he did anything to influence Forrest's men escaping.

My source for that is the statements of Pillow, Forrest and others of what transpired.
Forrest wrote " turning to General Pillow I asked him what I should do. He replied, "Cut your way out.""

 

[cash]

Your joking......

No. That is understanding the action in the Wheatfield. It's being able to say what each unit did, when it did it, and what happened as a result of its actions. Simply saying it was a bloodbath says nothing worthwhile about it.

 

[Elennsar]

Forts Henry and Donelson: The Key to the Confederate Heartland, Benjamin Franklin Cooling, from page 203:

"Buckner was apparently the first to propose surrender. ... Buckner had obviously lost his grip as he ripped off a round of excuses ... Buckner was insensitive to any suggestion from Pillow ... Finally Floyd caved in ... Floyd asked Buckner, 'if I place you in command will you allow me to get out as much of my brigade as I can?'"

I note you snipped the part concerning Pillow from that page:
"The scene rapidly approached bittersweet comedy. Floyd and Buckner rationalized that the army had fulfilled its mission to buy time for Johnston. Pillow finally bowed to the pressure, concluding 'there is only one alternative, that is capitulation.' But he vowed not to be a party to it, saying that no two persons in the Confederacy were more sought by the United States government than he and Floyd, and the discussion degenerated after that into moral issues surrounding a general officer's action in this regard. Floyd was afraid of being tried and hung for alleged misdemanors while serving as the prewar secretary of war. Pillow's reasons remained vague - perhaps his bombastic avowals of secession or his openly bantered image as a military buffoon concerned him. At any rate, having led the generals into this fix, Buckner now chose the martyr's role, as he declared it to be his considered duty to remain with his men and share their fate.

The conversation continued as minutes passed. Floyd asked Buckner . . ."

That hardly supports the assertion that Floyd just ignored Pillow and turned over command straight to Buckner.

Neither does the latter's official report:
"I declined to assume command when turned over by General Floyd, because it was against my convictions of duty to surrender the command, and under the decision of Generals Floyd and Buckner (a majority of the council)! could do nothing but surrender it."
http://www.civilwarhome.com/pillowfortdonelson2.html

Forrest's statements are are reported slightly different by the different officers there, but to quote his own report:

"I then asked if they were going to surrender the command. General Buckner remarked that they were. I then slated that I had not come out for the purpose of surrendering my command, and would not do it if they would follow me out; that I intended to go out if I saved but one man; and then turning to General Pillow I asked him what I should do. He replied, 'Cut your way out.'"

http://www.civilwarhome.com/forresft.htm

 

[TinCan]

Are you always this pompous, or are you just having a bad day, just askin.

 

[Nathanb1]

Are you always this pompous, or are you just having a bad day, just askin.

Honestly, TinCan, I think you may be overreacting. Haven't you ever wanted to know why/when/who about a battle? What's so hard to understand? Good grief, isn't that what brings us here?

 

[leftyhunter]

The way soldiers treated civilians, especially in the South. They robbed women and children of all their food, for example.

By cruel do you mean has in murdering unarmed men and boys like Quantrill did in the Lawrence Massacre in Kn? By cruel do you mean when Confederate troops during Lee's invasion kidnapped free blacks into slavery? If you have studied outer wars pre and post ACW one will notice that Union soldiers are *****cats compared to other armies in the treatment of civilians even compared to US soldiers in post ACW conflicts.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Why on Earth Jefferson Davis thought it was a remotely good idea to make Leonidas Polk a major general.

Because Gen.Polk was a old friend of his and a man of God?
Leftyhunter

 

[TinCan]

Cuse me

 

[leftyhunter]

Then the question comes up, and I believe it's been discussed before, why were such men given command? They had no "guts"?

A huge problem for both side was that since the average pre CW West Point class only graduated on average 50 men plus a few more from VMI there is only so many trained qualified officers to go around. Yes some non formally trained men such has Forrest did very well while Banks etc not so much. Yes both side more so the Union did import foreign military officers to command troops but has an overall percentage their numbers where small.
Leftyhunter

 

[Nathanb1]

A huge problem for both side was that since the average pre CW West Point class only graduated on average 50 men plus a few more from VMI there is only so many trained qualified officers to go around. Yes some non formally trained men such has Forrest did very well while Banks etc not so much. Yes both side more so the Union did import foreign military officers to command troops but has an overall percentage their numbers where small.
Leftyhunter

We recently had a really good thread on "trained" vs. "untrained." For every Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain and Forrest there were lots of failures. Lots.