Difficult Topics

[cash]

The wheatfield was just a dog eat dog blood bath

That's not understanding how the fighting occurred.

 

[cash]

Always surprises me how peoples give Buckner a pass .


This is how the National Park Service describes it: "The weary generals descended into gloom and confusion. Pillow counseled renewed fighting and holding their position. He did not want to yield a foot of Tennessee soil. But an increasingly despondent Buckner told of Smith's breakthrough and an enemy massed to crush his wing of the army on the morrow".

How does that show he's been given a pass?

 

[cash]

I've spent 45 years studying the Battle of Gettysburg, have been there hundreds of times, and I STILL don't have a solid handle on the fight for the Wheatfield. I doubt that I ever will.

Definitely some of the most confusing and convoluted fighting of the war. I've been out there a few times with different guidebooks trying to get a handle on it.

And the whole Nathan Bedford Forrest thing. I will never, ever understand that.

I think it traces back to Shelby Foote's voice.

 

[NedBaldwin]

How does that show he's been given a pass?

It doesnt -- that quote was my effort to argue why he should not be given a pass.

This is what shows him getting a pass:

The soldiers put up a good fight. It's Pillow and Floyd who chickened out.

 

[Pat Answer]

As daddy used to say, stay away from politics and religion and you can have a discussion!!

Wise man, your daddy.

 

[NedBaldwin]

I suppose many can empathize with General Buckner, when his superior Generals Pillow and Floyd made their escape as to save their hides, leaving the troops behind in Buckner's care in a forlorn hope and inevitable surrender.

Just my opinion.

M. E. Wolf

I see more reason to empathize with Pillow who wanted to fight on but found that Buckner had already decided to surrender and had convinced Floyd.

 

[Greg Taylor]

All three of them?

There are that many?

 

[1950lemans]

Well one thing we know for absolute certainty and that is military topics are definitely not difficult topics to discuss. It is, after all, a war and battles win/lose wars.

But reading the thread's flow does show that difficult topics are still circumscribed. Death/dying/injured/doctors/hospitals/nurses and their affects on real people. Hardly a peep on Reconstruction. Was their mention of finances and the convoluted game the Confederacy went through to pay for the war?

Why? Probably because they're boring. You'd probably need to be a stockbroker to figure out how the Confederacy was taken for a ride on the Continental bond market. Death is gruesome other than reading casualty figures which I have to admit is fascinating. It's just that I never go beyond the figures on the printed page.

We don't find military topics to difficult to discuss because they are fascinating. Why?

• CW battles are like intricate games we can get immersed in. Last stands, desperate charges and perserverance are admired.
• The CW is one of the most documented wars in history. Our CW personalities are probably more interesing than the previous 150 years of world history's personalities combined. Not only leaders and commanders but the common soldier.
• WE LIKE WINNERS. To turn back invasions; to desperately fight off a dominant foe through cunning, etc. Whether the army won or lost there was always a winner - an American

I mean, how many of you have a well stocked library on Vietnam? How many iterations of the Tet Offensive are on your bookshelf? We don't like loosers.

That's also probably why Reconstruction is difficult. It was Americans at their worst - a story of many loosers and a few winners and most of the winners "played dirty".

 

[cash]

It doesnt -- that quote was my effort to argue why he should not be given a pass.

This is what shows him getting a pass:

I don't understand how he was given a pass. He was third in line for command and only given command when their situation was hopeless and Floyd and Pillow decided to bug out. At least he stayed with his men to share their fate.

 

[Drew]

There's a Reconstruction Forum here, not heavily trafficked. It's hard.

 

[NedBaldwin]

I don't understand how he was given a pass.

The example I quoted from Elennsar mentions Floyd and Pillow but not Buckner. Thats giving him a pass.

He was third in line for command and only given command when their situation was hopeless and Floyd and Pillow decided to bug out.

He was given command becuase he wanted to surrender and Pillow wouldnt do it.

He did share his mens fate becuase he surrendered them.

Is Forrest a loser because he didn't stick around and surrender also?

 

[Nathanb1]

I'm missing something here.

 

[Elennsar]

I'm missing something here.

I think I am too. If Floyd and Pillow didn't want to surrender and Buckner did, the appropriate response would be for Floyd as the senior commander to say "We're not surrendering." and fight it out.

Forrest escaped with his men, Floyd deserted his, and Pillow acted in the same spirit as Floyd.

Buckner may have "mentally went to pieces" to quote Connelly, but at least he didn't try to subject others to something he wasn't willing to face himself.

 

[NedBaldwin]

I think I am too. If Floyd and Pillow didn't want to surrender and Buckner did, the appropriate response would be for Floyd as the senior commander to say "We're not surrendering." and fight it out.

I didnt say that Floyd didnt want to surrender. He agreed with the surrender but he didnt want to be there for it. I make no excuses for him.

But Pillow didnt want to surrender.

Forrest escaped with his men, Floyd deserted his, and Pillow acted in the same spirit as Floyd.

No, Pillow acted in the same spirit as Forrest.

 

[Nathanb1]

Okay. Don't have other sources handy, but the Civil War Trust makes it pretty clear Pillow is the loose screw here.....(which was my belief--anyone else chime in if you have something that negates this.....)

The Confederate attack seemed to stall and there was a lull on the battlefield. Buckner ordered additional infantry regiments and artillery forward to strengthen his position. He intended to press the attack or hold his position so that the rest of the Confederate Army could escape while his division served as a rear guard. Pillow sent a telegram to Johnston, in Nashville, announcing, "…The day is ours," and sent orders directing Buckner and all Confederate forces to withdraw inside the earthworks. Buckner questioned the order. He did not see the reason to simply give up all the area they had fought for and won that day. Pillow reiterated his original order and Buckner reluctantly began to comply. General Floyd arrived and asked why Buckner was moving back inside the earthworks. Buckner expressed his disagreement with Pillow's order and Floyd went to confer with Pillow. Ultimately, the Confederate command decided to pull back inside the earthworks.

More to come.

 

[Elennsar]

I didnt say that Floyd didnt want to surrender. He agreed with the surrender but he didnt want to be there for it. I make no excuses for him.

But Pillow didnt want to surrender.

Then he shouldn't have handed command over to Buckner and ducked out. Either act like a soldier and do what the commander wants, or fight it out, or in some other way show something other than a concern for his own hide and hang the rest. Anything except fleeing in a rowboat.

No, Pillow acted in the same spirit as Forrest.

Hardly. Pillow ran without either accepting responsibility for the surrender (as the senior most officer after Floyd) or withdrawing as many troops as possible (Forrest).


Nate: I think they all behaved poorly in regards to "Do we surrender?" Forrest is the only one with any gravel in his guts.

 

[cash]

The example I quoted from Elennsar mentions Floyd and Pillow but not Buckner. Thats giving him a pass.

I don't understand how he's given a pass. He wasn't in charge to put them in the situation in which they were in.

He was given command becuase he wanted to surrender and Pillow wouldnt do it.

He did share his mens fate becuase he surrendered them.

He was given command because the two men above him in rank bugged out and left him in command.

Is Forrest a loser because he didn't stick around and surrender also?

Forrest wasn't in command of the fort to get himself in the situation they were in, and he took his men with him.

 

[Nathanb1]

I see more reason to empathize with Pillow who wanted to fight on but found that Buckner had already decided to surrender and had convinced Floyd.

Well.....he's the one who withdrew when they had the road open to get out of there, and Buckner was moving to support him....so exactly how does that make him blameless. Buckner just didn't want to add a bunch of dead guys to the roster (after it was too darned late to do anything). Does common sense not trump haplessness?

 

[TinCan]

That's not understanding how the fighting occurred.

Oh really, what was it then?

 

[NedBaldwin]

Then he shouldn't have handed command over to Buckner and ducked out.

Floyd intended the command to go to Buckner; Buckner and Floyd had already decided on surrender. Pillow as just a 3rd wheel with nothing left to do but tell Forrest to cut his way out.

Either act like a soldier and do what the commander wants.

The commander wanted him to let Buckner surrender.

a concern for his own hide and hang the rest.

I disagree that Pillow showed that.

Hardly. Pillow ran without either accepting responsibility for the surrender (as the senior most officer after Floyd) or withdrawing as many troops as possible (Forrest).

Pillow was the one that told Forrest to take his men out.