CSS McRae's 24-pdr brass rifle ?

[Rhea Cole]

Easons at Charleston rifled and banded a 10" Columbiad to an English patent, 15grooves with a right hand twist, banded with Easons unique thick single band pattern. The gun you are referring to was an 1844 pattern 128pdr smooth bore. intended to fire a 104.7 lb loaded shell.
At least 10 other Confederate cast 10" Columbiads were bored and rifled to 6.4" and 8" . Cast with a cylindrical reinforce they were not banded.

It must have been something to fire one of those behemoths. Especially when you consider that the crews did not know what they were doing.

The first time they fired one of the big guns at FT Donelson's water battery it recoiled & flipped over backwards. It had not been properly mounted on its carriage.

In a private collection of family letters there is a vivid description of the event. A volunteer infantryman, the writer had never seen a large cannon in his life.

Easons at Charleston rifled and banded a 10" Columbiad to an English patent, 15grooves with a right hand twist, banded with Easons unique thick single band pattern. The gun you are referring to was an 1844 pattern 128pdr smooth bore. intended to fire a 104.7 lb loaded shell.
At least 10 other Confederate cast 10" Columbiads were bored and rifled to 6.4" and 8" . Cast with a cylindrical reinforce they were not banded.

Detailed citation does not agree with your identification.

According to the very detailed "Lady Polk & Belmont" September 22, 2022 CivilWarTalk entry:

Lady Polk & "Belmont" were cast at the Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond during 1861. They are referred to as "Anderson Rifles."

The rifled Columbiads were cast solid. They were then bored & rifled. It was believed that the thick walled Columbiad pattern provided enough mass to withstand the friction & resulting heat of the 6.4" bore.

"Belmont" was melted down during WWII. An Anderson rifle of the same pattern survived the war & is on display in Mobile AL.

The rifled Tredegar Columbiads were also referred to as "heavy 32 pound rifles" in CSA records.

The September 22, 2022 entry is very detailed. I refer any questions there as it is my source.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I have never seen a reference to a 9 inch Dahlgren smoothbore being banded.
Could you please cite your source?


For the purpose of addressing the kind and caliber of the McRae's artillery pieces, which is the topic of this thread, it should be remembered that the McRae sank in late April 1862. Improvements and experiments in heavy ordnance which were made later in the war (and even sometime before the loss of the McRae) are not relevant to this discussion.

In my opinion, if the mystery of exactly which piece exploded, (and where and when) is to be ascertained, we must stick to facts, as much as possible.

It was the carnage in inflicted by a bursting cast iron gun that motivated Lieutenant Parrott to find a better way. On the tightly packed deck of the McRae, the bursting of any of the guns would have been catastrophic. No wonder they evacuated their wounded to New Orleans.

 

[Biscoitos]

According to the NavSource Photo Index

In 1860 the former Mexican Navy Marquis de Havana was captured as a pirate by USS Saratoga.

In 1861 the ship was purchased by the CSA & outfitted as an 830 ton steam sloop commerce raider renamed the McRae. She was fitted out with a nine inch pivot gun, six 32 pounders & one six pounder.

There is a photo of the McRae in the "Ten Volume Photographic History of the Civil War."

After a defense of the forts protecting New Orleans the McRae came upriver under a flag of truce. The wounded were offloaded on 27 April 1862. The ship foundered at its moorings.

There is no mention of an anomalous swivel mounted 24 pound bronze rifle.

There was an M 1841 24 Pound bronze howitzer. There were 5 rifled Napoleons cast. They can be identified by the integral front sight. These were, apparently, experimental not operational.

View attachment 500384
One possibility is that the "bronze six pounder" was in fact a 14 pound rifle.
View attachment 500385
They were either M1841 six pounders rebored & rifled or new guns that were outwardly identical.

I would be delighted if anybody can find a reference to the manufacture of a 24 pound bronze rifled gun. I don't have any record of a bronze rifled 24 pounder, which doesn't mean there isn't one.

We know that the Confederates had rifled 24 pounders, there was at least one at Port Hudson.
We know that some rifled pieces, US and CS, were made of bronze. Notably the 3.80 inch "14 pounder James rifle" to which you referred)
But most rifled pieces, especially large caliber ones, were cast iron.
Bronze is simply not strong enough to withstand the pressure generated by heavy powder charges and large caliber projectiles.

A 24 pounder has a bore diameter of 5.8 inches. The pressure generated by firing a rifle projectile in such a piece would be much greater than a James rifle and seems doomed to failure.

On the other hand, if such a piece actually did exist and was on the McRae, it might well have exploded.

But is there a record of a bronze 24 pounder rifle anywhere, anytime?

 

[Biscoitos]

Easons at Charleston rifled and banded a 10" Columbiad to an English patent, 15grooves with a right hand twist, banded with Easons unique thick single band pattern. The gun you are referring to was an 1844 pattern 128pdr smooth bore. intended to fire a 104.7 lb loaded shell.
At least 10 other Confederate cast 10" Columbiads were bored and rifled to 6.4" and 8" . Cast with a cylindrical reinforce they were not banded.

Is there a record of a 10 Dahlgren smoothbore gun that was banded?

I know that "anything is possible" when people speculate, but is there any record of such a gun actually existing?

And yes, I know that referring to a large caliber Dahlgren as a "smoothbore" is redundant.

 

[Rhea Cole]

We know that the Confederates had rifled 24 pounders, there was at least one at Port Hudson.
We know that some rifled pieces, US and CS, were made of bronze. Notably the 3.80 inch "14 pounder James rifle" to which you referred)
But most rifled pieces, especially large caliber ones, were cast iron.
Bronze is simply not strong enough to withstand the pressure generated by heavy powder charges and large caliber projectiles.

A 24 pounder has a bore diameter of 5.8 inches. The pressure generated by firing a rifle projectile in such a piece would be much greater than a James rifle and seems doomed to failure.

On the other hand, if such a piece actually did exist and was on the McRae, it might well have exploded.

But is there a record of a bronze 24 pounder rifle anywhere, anytime?

I do not know of one. It would have been extremely expensive. Cast iron was a fraction of the price,

 

[USS ALASKA]

Many thanks to all have replied, particularly Red Rover and rebelatsea. Rebelatsea, would you be kind enough to post the source(s) for the banding of the 9" gun ?

Tredegar rifled cannon | Naval War - At Sea & Along Inland Waterways

From the Charleston Mercury, 9/12/1861 "BIG GUNS. - Some 9 and 11 inch Dahlgren guns have reached this city lately, and part of them may now be seen at the Northeastern Railroad Depot. They are powerful looking weapons, and when placed in battery will, no doubt, be equal to anything that the...

civilwartalk.com

Charleston Shipbuilders- Eason Bros. | Naval War - At Sea & Along Inland Waterways

I am looking for information (or a good source of info) on Eason Bros shipbuilders from Charleston.

civilwartalk.com

HTHs,
USS ALASKA

 

[Rhea Cole]

We know that the Confederates had rifled 24 pounders, there was at least one at Port Hudson.
We know that some rifled pieces, US and CS, were made of bronze. Notably the 3.80 inch "14 pounder James rifle" to which you referred)
But most rifled pieces, especially large caliber ones, were cast iron.
Bronze is simply not strong enough to withstand the pressure generated by heavy powder charges and large caliber projectiles.

A 24 pounder has a bore diameter of 5.8 inches. The pressure generated by firing a rifle projectile in such a piece would be much greater than a James rifle and seems doomed to failure.

On the other hand, if such a piece actually did exist and was on the McRae, it might well have exploded.

But is there a record of a bronze 24 pounder rifle anywhere, anytime?

Rifled 24 pounder "what?" I want to put this into my folder.

 

[Nick Elsden]

Since the McRae sank at her moorings during the night after bringing her wounded to New Orleans, that is that.

It is interesting that the reference to a large gun exploding near New Madrid corresponds with the failure of "Lady Polk." Given that the McRae was assigned to escort blockade runners into New Orleans, it is highly unlikely to absolutely impossible for her to suffer the failure of a gun on the TN /KY border.

What did happen was a ten inch coastal defense 15,000 pound rifled Columbiad named "Lady Polk" failed in a spectacular & highly improbable way.

Firing for the first time in support of the Battle of Belmont from FT De Russy KY. It was found that the copper flange on the 128 pound solid iron bolts were too large. They had to be filed down to fit between the 5 lands. After a few rounds, however, the hot barrel expanded to allow the large flanged bolts to be loaded.

At the order to cease fire, the last round was left loaded in the cooled down 12" thick breech.

Four days later Captain W.N.Keiter offered to demonstrate Lady Polk's capability to General Polk. The ensuing explosion was devastating. General Polk's britches & his wits were blown away.

Judging by the force of the Lady Polk's blast & damage done by the shattered gun fragments it is arguable that the McRae would not have survived such like.

Thank you for your thoughts, Rhea. I too was surprised to see the McRae upriver. Despite the McRae starting and ending her career in New Orleans, Hollins clearly reported her being upriver at New Madrid on 2nd & 9th March 1982 (ORN Ser I Vol 22, 832, 834).

 

[Biscoitos]

Rifled 24 pounder "what?" I want to put this into my folder.

American Battlefield Trust website, "Siege of Port Hudson", 9th paragraph.

Siege of Port Hudson

History of the Siege of Port Hudson

www.battlefields.org

"The Confederate center mounted 16 cannons, including two 24-pounder smoothbore siege guns, one 24-pounder rifled siege gun and a rifled 12-pounder bronze gun."

I have seen several references to this gun at Port Hudson. When I was there in February I also saw some reference to it, but can't recall exactly what the source was.

The website above was the quickest thing that I could find to offer you proof
that such a gun actually existed.

Biscoitos

 

[Rhea Cole]

Thank you for your thoughts, Rhea. I too was surprised to see the McRae upriver. Despite the McRae starting and ending her career in New Orleans, Hollins clearly reported her being upriver at New Madrid on 2nd & 9th March 1982 (ORN Ser I Vol 22, 832, 834).

The Mississippi River current near New Orleans is 3 mph. Below Paducah KY "in the river" the current is 1.2 mph.

When a City Class gunboat traveled up river it was towed by tug & with coal barges lashed on both beams. The three boilers on board burned a ton of coal / hour. The entire crew, officers & artificers included, were employed in shifting coal to the stokers. The relative rate of movement resulted in the same mph of a small girl going full blast on a tricycle.

The engines on a steam sloop were for maneuvering, not for cruising. The coal bunkers on the McRae held enough to fuel the galley, heating stoves & maneuvering in port, e.g.

Navigation above Memphis, the beginning of the delta, was based on a 9' foot channel today & then too.

The 830 ton McRae's draft is unknown. The draft of the steam sloop Brooklyn was over 16'. City Class gunboat draft 6'. The draft of an 830 oceangoing sloop (+ /-) 14'. Draft of a Mississippi River steamboat is / was 4'.

Moderate channel depth at New Madrid is 9', then & now.

I cannot categorically say that an ocean going 830 ton steam sloop with a 14' draft could not navigate upriver to New Madrid. However, I have no idea how it could have been done. On the face of it, physically impossible.

Never say never, but in this case the physical evidence is hard to ignore. It is highly unlikely the McRae could have been at New Madrid as described.

 

[Nick Elsden]

It's John M Brooke's report on the armour trials.

Many thanks. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find this via the internet, could you please tell me where it is published, and the title? Thanks, Nick.

 

[rebelatsea]

Many thanks. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find this via the internet, could you please tell me where it is published, and the title? Thanks, Nick.

Ironclads and Big Guns of the Confederacy. the journal and letters of John m Brooke. University of South Carolina press. ISBN 1-57003-418-4.
There are isolated references to the armour trials all over the place as well. it's a case (as in so much of the CSN) of trying to piece it all together, I don't pretend to have it all and probably never will.

 

[rebelatsea]

It must have been something to fire one of those behemoths. Especially when you consider that the crews did not know what they were doing.

The first time they fired one of the big guns at FT Donelson's water battery it recoiled & flipped over backwards. It had not been properly mounted on its carriage.

In a private collection of family letters there is a vivid description of the event. A volunteer infantryman, the writer had never seen a large cannon in his life.

Detailed citation does not agree with your identification.

According to the very detailed "Lady Polk & Belmont" September 22, 2022 CivilWarTalk entry:

Lady Polk & "Belmont" were cast at the Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond during 1861. They are referred to as "Anderson Rifles."

The rifled Columbiads were cast solid. They were then bored & rifled. It was believed that the thick walled Columbiad pattern provided enough mass to withstand the friction & resulting heat of the 6.4" bore.

"Belmont" was melted down during WWII. An Anderson rifle of the same pattern survived the war & is on display in Mobile AL.

The rifled Tredegar Columbiads were also referred to as "heavy 32 pound rifles" in CSA records.

The September 22, 2022 entry is very detailed. I refer any questions there as it is my source.

My reference is Olmstead, stark and Tucker, The Big Guns.

 

[Rhea Cole]

My reference is Olmstead, stark and Tucker, The Big Guns.

That is an excellent reference. As you know, good sources on this subject are not easy to find.

 

[Nick Elsden]

Ironclads and Big Guns of the Confederacy. the journal and letters of John m Brooke. University of South Carolina press. ISBN 1-57003-418-4.
There are isolated references to the armour trials all over the place as well. it's a case (as in so much of the CSN) of trying to piece it all together, I don't pretend to have it all and probably never will.

Thank you once again, that is most helpful -- or will be when Scribd will let me log in once again.

 

[rebelatsea]

Thank you once again, that is most helpful -- or will be when Scribd will let me log in once again.

It might be out of print, you might have to check somewhere like ABE - if you can get access.

 

[Story]

Just spitballing here, but maybe the "bronze 24 pounder" was an antique by the time it was mounted on the McRae?

If someone desperate for ordnance* took inspiration from Blomefield's 24-pounders, they could have bored out and rifled a smaller bronze tube. Scroll down to the table under that heading here, see 12 & 18 lber iron tube examples being freshened up 1847 - 1865.

24-pounder long gun - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

* "desperate for ordnance" - boring and rifling an 18lber bronze tube when the plan was thought up for iron. Then again, the ordnance folks might have included a load limitation warning when sending such a conversion out the door which might have been ignored/forgotten.

Like I said, just spitballing in the vacuum of actual facts.

 

[Story]

Have a template for the suspect conversion above and note that 24 would be easier to supply ammunition for instead of an 18. Given the general location of the McRae, old Spanish tubes in the wild would not be inconceivable and the piece in question might have been a dock bolllard recalled from retirement.

War Memorials of Wisconsin - Spanish 18-pounder bronze gun at Riverside Park in La Crosse, WI

War Memorials of Wisconsin strives to locate and document every War Memorial in Wisconsin.

warmemorials.us

@Nick Elsden - have you poked around newspapers.com et al for 1860 <-> 1861 time frame using variations of "bronze cannon rifled" and then switching up associated search terms? Seems like something the Times-Picayune/The New Orleans Advocate might have mentioned in passing on a slow news day.

 

[Story]

And since no one's responded to my post above, I'll push the notion further with the bronze French guns at Fort St Louis

Fort St. Louis

texasbeyondhistory.net

La Belle and Fort St. Louis

The remnants of the <em>La Belle</em>, which sank more than 300 years ago, were discovered in the summer of 1995 in Matagorda Bay.

www.texasalmanac.com

 

[Nick Elsden]

Have a template for the suspect conversion above and note that 24 would be easier to supply ammunition for instead of an 18. Given the general location of the McRae, old Spanish tubes in the wild would not be inconceivable and the piece in question might have been a dock bolllard recalled from retirement.

War Memorials of Wisconsin - Spanish 18-pounder bronze gun at Riverside Park in La Crosse, WI

War Memorials of Wisconsin strives to locate and document every War Memorial in Wisconsin.

warmemorials.us

@Nick Elsden - have you poked around newspapers.com et al for 1860 <-> 1861 time frame using variations of "bronze cannon rifled" and then switching up associated search terms? Seems like something the Times-Picayune/The New Orleans Advocate might have mentioned in passing on a slow news day.

Apologies for my late reply, Story, I have only just aught up with your suggestions, which I shall have a bash at following up. Thanks !