CSS McRae's 24-pdr brass rifle ?

[Nick Elsden]

Reading Neil Chatelain's 'Fought Like Devils: The Confederate Gunboat McRae', I was surprised and intrigued by the statement that the McRae's guns included a 'twenty-four pound rifled pivot gun', which exploded in the battle at New Orleans. So far, the only other reference that I have found to this gun is a pair of identical newspaper reports in the The Daily Despatch (New Orleans) of 14/15th October, and the Richmond Despatch of similar dates (latter quoted in ORN Ser I Vol 16, 728).

Does anyone know any more about this gun, and what primary sources there are for its existence, apparently ignored elsewhere ?

 

[RedRover]

The report of Lt. Charles W. Read regarding the McRae in this action says its pivot gun did indeed explode.

Commander John K. Mitchell reported the McRae was armed as follows...

Mitchell reports it was this 9-inch shell gun, in pivot, that exploded in action.

The IX-inch shell gun was a smoothbore.

The USS Hunchback had some IX-inch shell guns...

the CSS McRae evidently did have a brass rifled piece. Lt. Beverly Kennon stated:

In 1876, Lt. Read recorded this was a 24-pounder brass rifled piece on a pivot mount.

 

[Pollaco]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but this seems like as good a place as any to ask. The original name of the ship was "Marques de La Habana", she was renamed the CSS McCrae. For which McCrae was the boat renamed?

 

[RedRover]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but this seems like as good a place as any to ask. The original name of the ship was "Marques de La Habana", she was renamed the CSS McCrae. For which McCrae was the boat renamed?

Interesting.

My first guess about the namesake might be Mr. Colin J. McCrae of Alabama, a Mobile merchant, who was among the delegates to the Montgomery convention which formed the Southern Confederacy, and served in the Confederate Congress. He had interest in the Selma foundry making armor etc. for Confederate gunboats...

 

[Rhea Cole]

According to the NavSource Photo Index

In 1860 the former Mexican Navy Marquis de Havana was captured as a pirate by USS Saratoga.

In 1861 the ship was purchased by the CSA & outfitted as an 830 ton steam sloop commerce raider renamed the McRae. She was fitted out with a nine inch pivot gun, six 32 pounders & one six pounder.

There is a photo of the McRae in the "Ten Volume Photographic History of the Civil War."

After a defense of the forts protecting New Orleans the McRae came upriver under a flag of truce. The wounded were offloaded on 27 April 1862. The ship foundered at its moorings.

There is no mention of an anomalous swivel mounted 24 pound bronze rifle.

There was an M 1841 24 Pound bronze howitzer. There were 5 rifled Napoleons cast. They can be identified by the integral front sight. These were, apparently, experimental not operational.

One possibility is that the "bronze six pounder" was in fact a 14 pound rifle.

They were either M1841 six pounders rebored & rifled or new guns that were outwardly identical.

I would be delighted if anybody can find a reference to the manufacture of a 24 pound bronze rifled gun. I don't have any record of a bronze rifled 24 pounder, which doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

[Pollaco]

Colin J. would also be my guess. A book titled "Who's Who in the Civil War" lists 4 different Mcraes, Colin, Dandridge, Duncan, and William. All were Confederate personnel. But I agree that Colin J. McCrae would be the McCrae most likely thought of early in the war as He was in the Provisional Confederate Congress. While there he sat on the Naval Affair Committee in addition a few others.

 

[Bentonville]

Colin J. would also be my guess. A book titled "Who's Who in the Civil War" list 4 Mcraes, Colin, Dandridge, Duncan, and William. All were Confederate personnel. But I agree that Colin J. McCrae would be the McCrae most likely thought of early in the war as He was in the Provisional Confederate Congress. While there he sat on the Naval Affair Committee in addition a few others.

Or perhaps Ft. McCrae? It took a lot of shelling at Pensicola.

 

[Pollaco]

Isnt the Fort McCrae that was referred to actually spelled Fort McCree?

 

[Bentonville]

Isnt the Fort McCrae that was referred to actually spelled Fort McCree?

Oh... I think you're right. Spelling was never my strong suit.

 

[Pollaco]

Oh... I think you're right. Spelling was never my strong suit.

Is the fort still pronounced McRae, though?

 

[Bentonville]

Is the fort still pronounced McRae, though?

I'm from Florida and have heard it pronounced that way. Florida having so many varied accents from place to place and colloquialisms now you got me wondering.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Colin J. would also be my guess. A book titled "Who's Who in the Civil War" lists 4 different Mcraes, Colin, Dandridge, Duncan, and William. All were Confederate personnel. But I agree that Colin J. McCrae would be the McCrae most likely thought of early in the war as He was in the Provisional Confederate Congress. While there he sat on the Naval Affair Committee in addition a few others.

Dandridge McRae was the Inspector General of Arkansas State Troops & a CSA general. The former Marquis de La Habana was named after him.
Re: NavSource Index.

 

[rebelatsea]

The 9" Dahlgren SB aboard McRae was the only one to have been banded that I have found. the work was carried out at Norfolk Navy Yard and the gun was one of those used in Brooke's armour trials.
I have no idea if the intention had been to rifle it, increase it's power or just reinforce the breech.
It was shipped to New Orleans with rifled and banded 32pdrs intended for CSS Louisiana.

 

[Pollaco]

He must have been a "big man" in Arkansas as he didn't become a CS brigadier until Nov. 5. 1862. I wasn't aware the Confederacy named boats after Colonels, but then he also had the title of Inspector General of Arkansas.

 

[Rhea Cole]

He must have been a "big man" in Arkansas as he didn't become a CS brigadier until Nov. 5. 1862. I wasn't aware the Confederacy named boats after Colonels, but then he also had the title of Inspector General of Arkansas.

I suggest referring to the complete list of CSA commissioned vessels in the NavSource Photo Index, "Old Navy Sail & Steam." Keep in mind that the CSA system was fractured into myriad state & local authorities, there was no centralized Bureaucracy charged with naming vessels.

The Union navy listing is in two parts. Monitors are listed under battleships. Some of them had surprising postwar careers.

Note: if you are not familiar with NavSource you are in for a treat.

 

[Nick Elsden]

Many thanks to all have replied, particularly Red Rover and rebelatsea. Rebelatsea, would you be kind enough to post the source(s) for the banding of the 9" gun ?

We appear to be suffering here from conflicting primary sources: Mitchell says that it was the 9" pivot gun that exploded at New Orleans, whilst Midshipman Morgan notes the 9" Dahlgren exploding earlier at New Madrid [c. 3rd–14th March 1862]. (Chatelain apparently follows Morgan, stating that 'the McRae, however, would never receive a replacement nine-inch pivot gun'.) As Mitchell's account was about four months after the battle at New Orleans, and Morgan may have been writing some 40 or 50 years after the events, Mitchell's account may be the more likely.

Whether the brass gun was a 24-pdr or 6-pdr, rifled, remains mysterious, with Kennon's statement apparently contradicting Read's, as is whether it was an amidships pivot or a bow -- or perhaps stern -- pivot gun.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Many thanks to all have replied, particularly Red Rover and rebelatsea. Rebelatsea, would you be kind enough to post the source(s) for the banding of the 9" gun ?

We appear to be suffering here from conflicting primary sources: Mitchell says that it was the 9" pivot gun that exploded at New Orleans, whilst Midshipman Morgan notes the 9" Dahlgren exploding earlier at New Madrid [c. 3rd–14th March 1862]. (Chatelain apparently follows Morgan, stating that 'the McRae, however, would never receive a replacement nine-inch pivot gun'.) As Mitchell's account was about four months after the battle at New Orleans, and Morgan may have been writing some 40 or 50 years after the events, Mitchell's account may be the more likely.

Whether the brass gun was a 24-pdr or 6-pdr, rifled, remains mysterious, with Kennon's statement apparently contradicting Read's, as is whether it was an amidships pivot or a bow -- or perhaps stern -- pivot gun.

Since the McRae sank at her moorings during the night after bringing her wounded to New Orleans, that is that.

It is interesting that the reference to a large gun exploding near New Madrid corresponds with the failure of "Lady Polk." Given that the McRae was assigned to escort blockade runners into New Orleans, it is highly unlikely to absolutely impossible for her to suffer the failure of a gun on the TN /KY border.

What did happen was a ten inch coastal defense 15,000 pound rifled Columbiad named "Lady Polk" failed in a spectacular & highly improbable way.

Firing for the first time in support of the Battle of Belmont from FT De Russy KY. It was found that the copper flange on the 128 pound solid iron bolts were too large. They had to be filed down to fit between the 5 lands. After a few rounds, however, the hot barrel expanded to allow the large flanged bolts to be loaded.

At the order to cease fire, the last round was left loaded in the cooled down 12" thick breech.

Four days later Captain W.N.Keiter offered to demonstrate Lady Polk's capability to General Polk. The ensuing explosion was devastating. General Polk's britches & his wits were blown away.

Judging by the force of the Lady Polk's blast & damage done by the shattered gun fragments it is arguable that the McRae would not have survived such like.

 

[rebelatsea]

Many thanks to all have replied, particularly Red Rover and rebelatsea. Rebelatsea, would you be kind enough to post the source(s) for the banding of the 9" gun ?

We appear to be suffering here from conflicting primary sources: Mitchell says that it was the 9" pivot gun that exploded at New Orleans, whilst Midshipman Morgan notes the 9" Dahlgren exploding earlier at New Madrid [c. 3rd–14th March 1862]. (Chatelain apparently follows Morgan, stating that 'the McRae, however, would never receive a replacement nine-inch pivot gun'.) As Mitchell's account was about four months after the battle at New Orleans, and Morgan may have been writing some 40 or 50 years after the events, Mitchell's account may be the more likely.

Whether the brass gun was a 24-pdr or 6-pdr, rifled, remains mysterious, with Kennon's statement apparently contradicting Read's, as is whether it was an amidships pivot or a bow -- or perhaps stern -- pivot gun.

It's John M Brooke's report on the armour trials.

 

[rebelatsea]

Since the McRae sank at her moorings during the night after bringing her wounded to New Orleans, that is that.

It is interesting that the reference to a large gun exploding near New Madrid corresponds with the failure of "Lady Polk." Given that the McRae was assigned to escort blockade runners into New Orleans, it is highly unlikely to absolutely impossible for her to suffer the failure of a gun on the TN /KY border.

What did happen was a ten inch coastal defense 15,000 pound rifled Columbiad named "Lady Polk" failed in a spectacular & highly improbable way.

Firing for the first time in support of the Battle of Belmont from FT De Russy KY. It was found that the copper flange on the 128 pound solid iron bolts were too large. They had to be filed down to fit between the 5 lands. After a few rounds, however, the hot barrel expanded to allow the large flanged bolts to be loaded.

At the order to cease fire, the last round was left loaded in the cooled down 12" thick breech.

Four days later Captain W.N.Keiter offered to demonstrate Lady Polk's capability to General Polk. The ensuing explosion was devastating. General Polk's britches & his wits were blown away.

Judging by the force of the Lady Polk's blast & damage done by the shattered gun fragments it is arguable that the McRae would not have survived such like.

Easons at Charleston rifled and banded a 10" Columbiad to an English patent, 15grooves with a right hand twist, banded with Easons unique thick single band pattern. The gun you are referring to was an 1844 pattern 128pdr smooth bore. intended to fire a 104.7 lb loaded shell.
At least 10 other Confederate cast 10" Columbiads were bored and rifled to 6.4" and 8" . Cast with a cylindrical reinforce they were not banded.

 

[Biscoitos]

The 9" Dahlgren SB aboard McRae was the only one to have been banded that I have found. the work was carried out at Norfolk Navy Yard and the gun was one of those used in Brooke's armour trials.
I have no idea if the intention had been to rifle it, increase it's power or just reinforce the breech.
It was shipped to New Orleans with rifled and banded 32pdrs intended for CSS Louisiana.

I have never seen a reference to a 9 inch Dahlgren smoothbore being banded.
Could you please cite your source?

Easons at Charleston rifled and banded a 10" Columbiad to an English patent, 15grooves with a right hand twist, banded with Easons unique thick single band pattern. The gun you are referring to was an 1844 pattern 128pdr smooth bore. intended to fire a 104.7 lb loaded shell.
At least 10 other Confederate cast 10" Columbiads were bored and rifled to 6.4" and 8" . Cast with a cylindrical reinforce they were not banded.

For the purpose of addressing the kind and caliber of the McRae's artillery pieces, which is the topic of this thread, it should be remembered that the McRae sank in late April 1862. Improvements and experiments in heavy ordnance which were made later in the war (and even sometime before the loss of the McRae) are not relevant to this discussion.

In my opinion, if the mystery of exactly which piece exploded, (and where and when) is to be ascertained, we must stick to facts, as much as possible.