Civil War Brogans

[Package4]

Forgive my ignorance here, what evidence do you see that they have been re-soled? Not doubting you, I just don't know what you're seeing that I don't.

You can tell that they have been resoled due to the two piece bottom. Compare them to your minty pair and you will see what we are referring to.

Used brogans are a very delicate area of collecting, I have a pair that I have used for reenacting and they cannot be discerned from originals, they are over 20 years old and have been resoled countless times. The only discerning feature is the Gorilla glue used for an emergency sole patch.

A decent cobbler can use the exact same construction methods, Robert Land, was one of the best in his hey day and his wares were virtually indistinguishable. Much caution needs to be used in this arena...……

I was lucky enough to acquire a few pair that came out of a trash pit and the surrounding soil/mud preserved the leather.

I will post some pictures of ACW footware when I get a chance.

 

[Billw12280]

The sole would have been in one piece as in the photos above of the rivetted sides and soles brogans. The ones you're picturing here (and that I've copied) have a half-sole replacement - you can see the line of the new half-sole just forward of the big dink in the instep. If you run your finger along the bottom, there'll be a slight ridge.

If they were going to replace the whole sole in a repair, they would have had to remove the heel and basically rebuild the whole shoe. Instead, they cut off the worn front part and glue and peg-in a new portion at the front.

I see, thank you for the information. I did see that but thought it part of the original construction. These shoes were certainly well traveled.

 

[Si Klegg]

Here's some views of my British import shoe which I used for Confed impressions. Like @Package4 's , they've been repaired a few times by my traditional cobbler (who has sadly retired now.)

 

[Package4]

Here's some views of my British import shoe which I used for Confed impressions. Like @Package4 's , they've been repaired a few times by my traditional cobbler (who has sadly retired now.)

Sweeet!

 

[Billw12280]

You can tell that they have been resoled due to the two piece bottom. Compare them to your minty pair and you will see what we are referring to.

Used brogans are a very delicate area of collecting, I have a pair that I have used for reenacting and they cannot be discerned from originals, they are over 20 years old and have been resoled countless times. The only discerning feature is the Gorilla glue used for an emergency sole patch.

A decent cobbler can use the exact same construction methods, Robert Land, was one of the best in his hey day and his wares were virtually indistinguishable. Much caution needs to be used in this arena...……

I was lucky enough to acquire a few pair that came out of a trash pit and the surrounding soil/mud preserved the leather.

I will post some pictures of ACW footware when I get a chance.

Here's some views of my British import shoe which I used for Confed impressions. Like @Package4 's , they've been repaired a few times by my traditional cobbler (who has sadly retired now.)

You can tell that they have been resoled due to the two piece bottom. Compare them to your minty pair and you will see what we are referring to.

Used brogans are a very delicate area of collecting, I have a pair that I have used for reenacting and they cannot be discerned from originals, they are over 20 years old and have been resoled countless times. The only discerning feature is the Gorilla glue used for an emergency sole patch.

A decent cobbler can use the exact same construction methods, Robert Land, was one of the best in his hey day and his wares were virtually indistinguishable. Much caution needs to be used in this arena...……

I was lucky enough to acquire a few pair that came out of a trash pit and the surrounding soil/mud preserved the leather.

I will post some pictures of ACW footware when I get a chance.

I've only seen a few pairs in person, my "minty" ones, these ones, and the relic condition ones in the museum. Most of the reenactors shoes I've seen have been pretty obviously of newer manufacture. I've looked these over and get the impression that they are original. Do you see anything that would lead you to think otherwise? What are some of the red flags you would look for in determining if they are just an older, well worn pair of reenactors shoes?

***Edit***
Maybe I've misunderstood something here. Are you saying that since they have the repaired soles they are most likely reenactors shoes?

 

[Billw12280]

Here's some views of my British import shoe which I used for Confed impressions. Like @Package4 's , they've been repaired a few times by my traditional cobbler (who has sadly retired now.)

Those are very nice!

 

[Si Klegg]

Sweeet!

About 25 years old now

Of course, in those days, they would just have been thrown away when new boots were issued but at £80.00 a pair (then), I couldn't afford to do that.

So from a Campaigner point-of-view, I am just another farb with my repaired brogans

 

[Si Klegg]

I've only seen a few pairs in person, my "minty" ones, these ones, and the relic condition ones in the museum. Most of the reenactors shoes I've seen have been pretty obviously of newer manufacture. I've looked these over and get the impression that they are original. Do you see anything that would lead you to think otherwise? What are some of the red flags you would look for in determining if they are just an older, well worn pair of reenactors shoes?

I'm no expert obviously - it was only the half-sole repair that struck a chord with me. From what little I know though, it's the shape of the sole that is a dead giveaway. Most Sutler repros (not including Robert Land or Missouri Boot & Shoe) have entirely the wrong sole shape. The 'minty' pair have that defined shape.

Here you go, a comparison of Brogan soles from Missouri Boot & Shoe:

http://www.missouribootandshoe.com/u-s-military-brogans--shoes.html

 

[Si Klegg]

I've only seen a few pairs in person, my "minty" ones, these ones, and the relic condition ones in the museum. Most of the reenactors shoes I've seen have been pretty obviously of newer manufacture. I've looked these over and get the impression that they are original. Do you see anything that would lead you to think otherwise? What are some of the red flags you would look for in determining if they are just an older, well worn pair of reenactors shoes?

***Edit***
Maybe I've misunderstood something here. Are you saying that since they have the repaired soles they are most likely reenactors shoes?

Nobody can say for sure without I suppose, carbon dating or somesuch or if you are a Cobbler

Thing is, the fellow may have had the boots issued at war's end, was mustered out in them and wore them home. You know how some of us fellers are 'partickler', your man may have loved his boots and wore them and had them repaired after the war.

 

[Billw12280]

I'm no expert obviously - it was only the half-sole repair that struck a chord with me. From what little I know though, it's the shape of the sole that is a dead giveaway. Most Sutler repros (not including Robert Land or Missouri Boot & Shoe) have entirely the wrong sole shape. The 'minty' pair have that defined shape.

Here you go, a comparison of Brogan soles from Missouri Boot & Shoe:

http://www.missouribootandshoe.com/u-s-military-brogans--shoes.html

That seems to be an interesting site, I'll have to read through it in detail tonight.

 

[byron ed]

Probably a reenactorism but never really knew: as far as construction of issue bootees, were rough-outs more common or weren't they?

 

[Si Klegg]

Here's one of my Robert Land boots, ready for when I bite the bullet and do Civilian re-enacting. I bought these second-hand, as you can see, very little wear, they were an absolute bargain, £120.00 (c. $150.oo) Lovely sole shape and sole stamped 'Robert Land' so you couldn't sell these on as original even if you were that way inclined ... unless you scraped the name off

 

[Si Klegg]

Probably a reenactorism but never really knew: as far as construction of issue bootees, were rough-outs more common or weren't they?

Yep, a question that I've never found a definitive answer to. I suspect you're right about the re-enactorism. We need a shoe-expert!

Off Topic, but ... As I said, I'm no expert, but I worked in a shoe shop in the King's Road in London in the 70's for a time.

My claim to fame is that I served the blonde girl from Abba, Agnetha, sold her new knee boots. I also met Johnny Rotten and the other Sex Pistols over the road from the shop in the Chelsea Drugstore.

OK, end of off-topic

 

[Billw12280]

Nobody can say for sure without I suppose, carbon dating or somesuch or if you are a Cobbler

Thing is, the fellow may have had the boots issued at war's end, was mustered out in them and wore them home. You know how some of us fellers are 'partickler', your man may have loved his boots and wore them and had them repaired after the war.

Nobody can say for sure without I suppose, carbon dating or somesuch or if you are a Cobbler

Thing is, the fellow may have had the boots issued at war's end, was mustered out in them and wore them home. You know how some of us fellers are 'partickler', your man may have loved his boots and wore them and had them repaired after the war.

One of the flags I got initially was when they were said to be a cavalry officers. I thought they would be issued (or purchase) boots not brogans. But then I recall something about a manufacturer that was brought in due to his shoes falling apart within a couple weeks of issue to the Infantry and he stated "but those shoes were meant for the Cavalry".

I think these are more early war style shoes so it would depend on when he mustered out I guess. I know it was common for these to be worn well after the war ended but would they have them repaired or just throw them away. Our society now leans more towards the disposables but back then I would think they would repair things as much as possible, especially something as coveted as footwear. If these turn out to be reenactors shoes it was a somewhat expensive lesson learned but not the end of the world.

 

[Billw12280]

Probably a reenactorism but never really knew: as far as construction of issue bootees, were rough-outs more common or weren't they?

I seem to recall reading they were made with the rough side out, I'll have to see if I can find the source later.

 

[Package4]

Nobody can say for sure without I suppose, carbon dating or somesuch or if you are a Cobbler

Thing is, the fellow may have had the boots issued at war's end, was mustered out in them and wore them home. You know how some of us fellers are 'partickler', your man may have loved his boots and wore them and had them repaired after the war.

Some of my trash pit brogans have repairs to the soles as do a pair that came from the Brooklyn Navy Yard; while on campaign, it was difficult to obtain footwear and most regiments had a proficient cobbler or two from civilian life to help with repair. A regiment was composed of all kinds of talent from the locale they were from, barbers, mechanics (mostly carriage), cobblers, apothecarist, farmers, you name it, a regiment was a homogenous unit. When a skill was lacking, there was invariably someone set up within the battalion, to provide the service, if not, sutlers, came into play.

Much caution needs to be exhibited in this venue of collecting, this is similar to slouch hat collecting, there were 16 million military age males during the war, but only 1/4 of those participated. Hats and shoes are considered civilian until proven by military indication (military specification), firm attribution (name in sweatband), evidence of insignia (currently on piece or shadow of). Then you have to deal with recreations, slouch hats are easier to delineate than brogans, due to the material composition and sewing styles, brogans are the hardest to ascertain. Generally the leather on period Federal brogan uppers are fairly thin, as compared to today's recreations. Brogans would wear out rather quickly on campaign 3-6 months, while recreators don't need the hassle of disgruntled customers, so the leather is fairly sturdy, thus my brogan lasting 20 years.

Real Brogans are rare due to their utilitarian aspect and low appeal on the preservation and interest front of the veteran. Very much like haversacks, they got smelly and wore out after a while and momma tossed them. Keep in mind that many returning soldiers came home to a rural life and wore their undergarments, brogans and trousers until they couldn't be worn any longer. There was no a trash pickup for those outside the city and they were tossed into the backyard pit for burning or burial.

 

[Package4]

Probably a reenactorism but never really knew: as far as construction of issue bootees, were rough-outs more common or weren't they?

Good question and though I have never seen a pair of original rough-outs, doesn't preclude their existence. I would venture on saying that they would have been condemned by an inspector, but depending upon supply may have been used if needed. Whitney made a small fortune selling guns manufactured with condemned parts, early in the war.

I had a pair of rough-outs very early in my reenacting days and they quickly lost their rough look, with much use and became more in line with regular issue, though the rough was still apparent in non friction areas.

 

[Package4]

Here are additional pictures.

What size are they heel to toe measurements?

 

[Billw12280]

What size are they heel to toe measurements?

I would say 10" roughly. I will measure them when I get home.

 

[Billw12280]

I'm no expert obviously - it was only the half-sole repair that struck a chord with me. From what little I know though, it's the shape of the sole that is a dead giveaway. Most Sutler repros (not including Robert Land or Missouri Boot & Shoe) have entirely the wrong sole shape. The 'minty' pair have that defined shape.

Here you go, a comparison of Brogan soles from Missouri Boot & Shoe:

http://www.missouribootandshoe.com/u-s-military-brogans--shoes.html

I looked through the site that you referenced. The picture I posted did appear to have a less defined shape due to the angle I took it from. The soles are actually more defined though. Below are images from the seller where you can see the more defined sole.

They look more like this

Than this