Burnside Carbine 5th?

[FrankT]

Hello,
I am trying to learn more about the Burnside Carbine I just purchased. I took the plunge and purchased two guns—the Burnside and M1870 Springfield. 15-20 years ago, I would have been very competent and knowledgeable, but as family and careers converge, we know how that goes. I do believe they are legit (unless you see something I missed), but I was hoping for help on the Burnside.

Matching s/n 17431 (at least that looks like a 7 to me). It has some cartouches and the 1856 date on the breech. Additionally, the barrel stamp looks like 1862, which further confuses me. The last is the saddle ring bar - the screw is on the other side from 99.9% of the photos I have seen. But I have found 3 out of hundreds that I looked at that have the same. Thanks in advance, and the post - Burnside Carbine - A Journey of Discovery by Conferadate Canuck was very helpful.

 

[UCVRelics]

Nice looking Burnside. With the 1862 date (which also should have CAST STEEL in front of it) its a 4th model. The Burnside's have several models and the model # are collector names and not period names. Serial numbers were continued from earlier models to about 11,000, production estimated 1862 or 1863. The barrel is stamped Cast Steel 1862, the date is weak or missing on most, this is because the long and narrow stamp had to be centered on a round barrel, apparently most were not centered. Below is a great write up on them. With that I'm leaning the serial # is 11431.

 

[FrankT]

Thanks for the additional information. I tried to take a picture of the barrel mark, but it is not detailed enough. It is about half gone, but you can see Cast Steel and 186. I think it is a 2 because there is a _ for the last number. Under magnification, it looks straight, which makes me believe it is a 2. Also is there any type of list of good reference books? And where did that write up come from? I currently have Flaydermans and Hull's books on order.

 

[RetiredCanuck]

Both Spencer and Sharps offered rifle or carbine options for their weapons.
I've not heard that Burnside offered a rifle as well. Did they at any point?

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

The Burnside models / variations are VERY confusing. I just bought my first one over the weekend at the Ohio Gun Collector's Association meeting.

I think the Hull book is the standard reference. I don't have that book.

As to the serial number, likely the third serial stamped on the bottom of the barrel on your gun, under the wood forearm, will be clear since it was protected over the years.

One major thing I've learned:

The early ones did NOT have a screw through the receiver on the right side.
The later ones did have this screw.
That's an easy view dividing line between early and later models.

Perhaps 80% of the Burnside carbines made are of the later type, with the screw through the receiver. These were delivered through the end of the War, and many delivered too late to have seen action in the Civil War.

Major thing I'd like to understand:

Why did Burnside reset serial numbers back to "1" at some point in 1864?

This creates a lot of confusion for collectors, since the records of serial numbers in the Springfield Research Service ("SRS") database don't differentiate. My newly acquired serial 6712 (an early one, without the screw in the receiver) has a "serial number twin" of 6712 made in 1864 (with the screw in receiver). If the SRS records should say (they don't, just an example) that Burnside serial 6712 was recorded as being the hands of some specific company in 1864 or 1865, I can't know if the record is for MY early 6712, or the duplicate 6712 made later in the War!

 

[JOHN42768]

I can only make out one of the cartouches. JT was for John Taylor. A little confusing as "US Military Arms Inspector Marks" by C. Pate only references it to 2nd model. Maybe??? a switched stock???

 

[johan_steele]

Both Spencer and Sharps offered rifle or carbine options for their weapons.
I've not heard that Burnside offered a rifle as well. Did they at any point?

Yes there was a Burnside rifle. IIRC it was pre war. I e seen exactly one and the price was painful to look at. More than the Spencer with double set triggers.

 

[RetiredCanuck]

Yes there was a Burnside rifle. IIRC it was pre war. I e seen exactly one and the price was painful to look at. More than the Spencer with double set triggers.

Thanks for the information. It does seem odd that so many carbines were ordered during the war, yet Spencer and Sharps got orders for (and made) both rifles and carbines. Maybe politics, because Burnside was also a high ranking army officer during the war?

 

[FrankT]

I can only make out one of the cartouches. JT was for John Taylor. A little confusing as "US Military Arms Inspector Marks" by C. Pate only references it to 2nd model. Maybe??? a switched stock???

Thanks for the info. Thanks for the reference also. I think my barrel is 1862 maybe left over or switched. Thanks I will try to dig.

 

[FrankT]

The Burnside models / variations are VERY confusing. I just bought my first one over the weekend at the Ohio Gun Collector's Association meeting.

I think the Hull book is the standard reference. I don't have that book.

As to the serial number, likely the third serial stamped on the bottom of the barrel on your gun, under the wood forearm, will be clear since it was protected over the years.

One major thing I've learned:

The early ones did NOT have a screw through the receiver on the right side.
The later ones did have this screw.
That's an easy view dividing line between early and later models.

Perhaps 80% of the Burnside carbines made are of the later type, with the screw through the receiver. These were delivered through the end of the War, and many delivered too late to have seen action in the Civil War.

Major thing I'd like to understand:

Why did Burnside reset serial numbers back to "1" at some point in 1864?

This creates a lot of confusion for collectors, since the records of serial numbers in the Springfield Research Service ("SRS") database don't differentiate. My newly acquired serial 6712 (an early one, without the screw in the receiver) has a "serial number twin" of 6712 made in 1864 (with the screw in receiver). If the SRS records should say (they don't, just an example) that Burnside serial 6712 was recorded as being the hands of some specific company in 1864 or 1865, I can't know if the record is for MY early 6712, or the duplicate 6712 made later in the War!

I am toying with taking it apart just to see the other SN but am cautious. I don't want to wreck it.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

Thanks for the information. It does seem odd that so many carbines were ordered during the war, yet Spencer and Sharps got orders for (and made) both rifles and carbines. Maybe politics, because Burnside was also a high ranking army officer during the war?

Rifles cost a lot more carbines and so fewer were purchased.
I think the only Burnside rifle made was an experiment and these never were put in production.
General Burnside had lost his patent rights to this arm before the War due to insolvency.

 

[FrankT]

Thanks for the great information so far. I have received Edward Hull's Burnside Breechloading Carbines and Rifles book, which is fantastic. Does anyone know if Edward Hull is around?

I understand that there were no official 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 models, but I understand why one would use them. I will generally use them to help me remember and understand the differences.

What I Learned
The hammer was straight in earlier models and curved in later models. To add confusion or clarity (depending on what you believe), it is stated that early 'fifth models' retained the 1856 breech marking. Additionally, the trigger plate is shorter on the 'early fifth models'. So, I would be curious if anyone has a Model 1864 marked rifle to compare to mine.

Additionally, the sights are shown to differ between some of the 'models'. The sights on Model 1864 are supposed to be different from those on the 4th and most 5th models. Accordingly, mine matches with some 4ths and most 5ths (according to Hull).

He also discusses serial number surveys. I am not sure where you can view these. He stated that under the contract of Dec 29, 1862, 22,140 were delivered (of the 'fifth model'). He goes on to say the low s/n was 11534, and the high was 38749. This adds more confusion as it is more than the contract. But additional rifles were also offered at a lower price due to defects.

So, for me, it seems that as production continued and changes were enacted, they did not stop and retool. They continued and phased them in. So, one could say 4th model or early 5th.

Be sure to let me know if I am off base or if there is any other information that you may have. I would greatly appreciate it. I am continuing to learn and hopefully gain more clarity. I wonder if there are any Burnside Carbine sub-boards I may have missed.

Side note where can I get some cartridges?

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

I've got a "Model of 1864" for that comparison you wanted to do.

S&S Firearms sells brass cartridges. They will last a very long time if used properly, but you may need to do some filing to make them fit your specific gun. I believe I posted some comments on somebody elses thread on this topic ( https://civilwartalk.com/threads/bu...r-reproduction-cartridge.209728/#post-2762161 ) Hardly anyone else sells casings anymore (brass or plastic), but I must say I haven't checked in the past year. Some of the brass might be "out of spec" but S&S gladly shipped me new ones for those that were off spec. Plastic ones don't last long....max of 20 shots supposedly but in my experience some split at the casing mouth after only a few shots...I used a .562 ball so maybe that was a bit wide for the plastic casings? Anyhow, I switched to brass shortly thereafter and never fired any plastic more 3 imes so I can't comment on their durability beyond that. I much prefer brass, especially since they feel "authentic". Most brass fit and fired quite well but I had read on other shooters forums (like NSSA) that its best to sand the base to match the shape of the "cup" where the percussion cap flash passes through (that too was covered on the other thread as I recall). I had started to sand mine but have left that as a project to be completed this winter.

I found some errors/confusing statements in the Hull book re serial numbers. I have some notes on how I resolved those discrepancies but never posted on it....maybe I should? Perhaps others here noticed similar discrepanies or could clear up my confusion about what Hull wrote? Any appetite for that as a thread?

P.S. Not sure which part you want to look at for the S/N, but as long as the parts aren't locked solid with rust, the Burnside parts are sturdy and well-machined...it can be taken apart. Mine gets completely taken apart after shooting cuz I don't want the fouling to destroy my prized piece of history.

My only disappointment with the Burnside is that it isn't powerful enough to hunt deer...maybe the does but definitely not the big sturdy bucks where we hunt. My son bagged a huge 270 lb buck last year with our Sharps Carbine (using 68 grains of blackpowder); posted a pic in the Forums last year ( https://civilwartalk.com/threads/does-anyone-hunt-with-their-acw-guns.205718/ ). Deer season coming soon...stay tuned!

 

[FrankT]

I've got a "Model of 1864" for that comparison you wanted to do.

S&S Firearms sells brass cartridges. They will last a very long time if used properly, but you may need to do some filing to make them fit your specific gun. I believe I posted some comments on somebody elses thread on this topic ( https://civilwartalk.com/threads/bu...r-reproduction-cartridge.209728/#post-2762161 ) Hardly anyone else sells casings anymore (brass or plastic), but I must say I haven't checked in the past year. Some of the brass might be "out of spec" but S&S gladly shipped me new ones for those that were off spec. Plastic ones don't last long....max of 20 shots supposedly but in my experience some split at the casing mouth after only a few shots...I used a .562 ball so maybe that was a bit wide for the plastic casings? Anyhow, I switched to brass shortly thereafter and never fired any plastic more 3 imes so I can't comment on their durability beyond that. I much prefer brass, especially since they feel "authentic". Most brass fit and fired quite well but I had read on other shooters forums (like NSSA) that its best to sand the base to match the shape of the "cup" where the percussion cap flash passes through (that too was covered on the other thread as I recall). I had started to sand mine but have left that as a project to be completed this winter.

I found some errors/confusing statements in the Hull book re serial numbers. I have some notes on how I resolved those discrepancies but never posted on it....maybe I should? Perhaps others here noticed similar discrepanies or could clear up my confusion about what Hull wrote? Any appetite for that as a thread?

P.S. Not sure which part you want to look at for the S/N, but as long as the parts aren't locked solid with rust, the Burnside parts are sturdy and well-machined...it can be taken apart. Mine gets completely taken apart after shooting cuz I don't want the fouling to destroy my prized piece of history.

My only disappointment with the Burnside is that it isn't powerful enough to hunt deer...maybe the does but definitely not the big sturdy bucks where we hunt. My son bagged a huge 270 lb buck last year with our Sharps Carbine (using 68 grains of blackpowder); posted a pic in the Forums last year ( https://civilwartalk.com/threads/does-anyone-hunt-with-their-acw-guns.205718/ ). Deer season coming soon...stay tuned!

Awesome thanks. I certainly would like you to post that info if you can. I too felt that Hull was a bit confusing on the SN. He guessed that maybe the second carbines were added. If you tear down your carbine again would you post some pics especially the steps to getting to the barrel sn? I am cautious about firing mine. Did you have it looked at by someone prior or how did you determine it was safe enough to shoot?

Frank

 

[ConfederateCanuck]

Awesome thanks. I certainly would like you to post that info if you can. I too felt that Hull was a bit confusing on the SN. He guessed that maybe the second carbines were added. If you tear down your carbine again would you post some pics especially the steps to getting to the barrel sn? I am cautious about firing mine. Did you have it looked at by someone prior or how did you determine it was safe enough to shoot?

Frank

Ok, will post but it might be a few weeks before I get around to it. Very busy. I'll set a reminder for myself.

As for inspecting the gun for firing, I have alot of experience. Anyone without such experience should take it to a gunsmith.

 

[FrankT]

Ok, will post but it might be a few weeks before I get around to it. Very busy. I'll set a reminder for myself.

As for inspecting the gun for firing, I have alot of experience. Anyone without such experience should take it to a gunsmith.

Sounds good thanks!