Confederate Burnside carbines? help please.

[SEJET]

I have first model Burnside Carbine serial number 38 that was reported "Captured on the battlefield at Corinth Oct 4th 1862".



Description:
This is a solid representative example of one of less than 300 total First Model Burnside carbines manufactured by Bristol Firearms Co. circa 1857-58. A reported 200 First Models were purchased by the U.S. government, with most issued to the 1st U.S. Cavalry at Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas in January 1858 and carried on various expeditions. This example is marked with sub-inspector initials "A.D.K." (Andrew D. King) on the left of the barrel at the breech. A tape primer device located inside the frame is actuated by a breechblock release lever mounted on the right side of the frame; unique to the First Model Burnside carbines, with subsequent models absent both the primer system and this style of lever. According to "The Burnside Breech Loading Carbines" by Edward A. Hull pg. 15-17, "...on April 21, 1856, Col. [Henry] Craig [Chief of Ordnance] ordered 200 carbines of Burnside for field trials... By the terms of this first Army order for carbines [Ambrose] Burnside was to provide carbines of .54 caliber having a barrel 22 inches long and weighing less than seven pounds overall. The carbines were required to have a swivel bar with ring for cavalry use. In a change to the design, Col. Craig required that the carbine be configured to use Maynard's tape primer…This requirement presented Burnside and Foster [Burnside's partner and head gunsmith] with the problem of developing a primer feed mechanism which would work reliably, could be readily manufactured and avoided infringing on Dr. Maynard's lock patent (to avoid paying royalties)." Like the second model after it, it correctly lacks a forend. Blade front and fixed notch rear sight. Matching numbers are located on the frame, breech block, and underside of the barrel. The stock is fitted with a brass trapdoor buttplate.

"C.S.A. "carved in the top of the buttstock comb, and "Captured on the battlefield at Corinth Oct 4th 1862" carving faintly visible on the left of the buttstock. It is possible this early Burnside carbine could have been captured at the Battle of Corinth, which occurred between October 3rd-4th, 1862, and may have been subsequently used in Confederate hands. Circular brass collection tag marked "348" hanging from the sling ring.

Any thoughts?

thnx
steve
sheet

 

[scooter748driver]

Pictures would help determine what you have.

 

[UCVRelics]

The Burnside has 5 different models thru out the CW and as @scooter748driver said Photos.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

One element in judging authenticity of an item is the source and provenance of the item
Your posting looks to be a cut and pasted auction description.
Correct?

 

[SEJET]

Yes!
Rock Island
2023 December Premier #4090
Lot 3297: Burnside First Model U.S. Saddle Ring Carbine Serial Number 38
photos to follow
enjoy
steve
SEJET

 

[SEJET]

 

[Don Dixon]

Absent provenance, a C.S.A. marking on a firearm is virtually a guarantee that the weapon has been tampered with in a attempt to increase its value through an alleged Confederate association, since the Confederate Ordnance Bureau did not mark weapons with a C.S. or C.S.A. mark. There are markings that provide Southern provenance, but not those.

 

[plymouthairrifle]

Your having consecutive serial numbers on a pair this early and rare is a big WOW! Congrats!

 

[SEJET]

Pictures would help determine what you have.

Pictures on the way.
Let me know if you want any particular detailed pictures of these 2 guns or any other Burnside Carbines models in the collection. (Foster Rifle, 2a, 2b, 3, 4, 5, and early Burnside Spencer)


P.S.
I would love to rename the Burnside 2nd models.

2a, made by the Bristol Firearm Co. made in Bristol, R.I.
and
2b, made by the Burnside Rifle Co. made in Providence R.I.

2 different guns
2 different manufactures
2 different locations


steve
SEJET

(two different values?)

 

[SEJET]

Your having consecutive serial numbers on a pair this early and rare is a big WOW! Congrats!

THNX!
I feel the same way.

Even if the CSA marking WERE faked, I love that these two time travelers survived and are now together.

I wonder what stories they tell each other when I close the rifle case and put them away for the night

Hey, that could be a good book.


steve
SEJET

 

[SEJET]

Absent provenance, a C.S.A. marking on a firearm is a virtually guarantee that the weapon has been tampered with in a attempt to increase its value through an alleged Confederate association, since the Confederate Ordnance Bureau did not mark weapons with a C.S. or C.S.A. mark. There are markings that provide Southern provenance, but not those.

When did the Confederate Ordnance Bureau start?

 

[Story]

A relevant cautionary tale.

https://brownencyclopedia.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F13020192322

 

[SEJET]

An interesting note about arms picked up by Southern soldiers from General Josiah Gorgas, Chief of Ordnance of the Confederate States from the:

Southern Historical Society Papers, Volume 12.
Reverend J. William Jones, Ed.
Contributions to the history of the Confederate Ordnance Department
Found among the papers of the late General Josiah Gorgas, Chief of Ordnance of the Confederate States.


'Notes on the Ordnance Department of the Confederate Government. (87)

Good rifled arms on hand at the beginning of the war (this includes the arms in the hands of volunteer companies),	25,000
New arms manufactured in the Confederacyand in private Establishments	40,000
Arms received from the battle-fields and put in good order (this includes the great number of arms picked up by the soldiers)	150,000
Imported from January 1st, 1862, to July 1st, 1863	185,000
	———
Total	400,000

This estimate does not include pistols and sabres, of which a small supply was imported.

To account for the very large number obtained from the enemy (rather an under than an over estimate), it must be remembered that in some fights, where our troops were not finally successful, they were so at first; and swept over the camps and positions of the enemy. Whenever a Confederate soldier saw a weapon better than his own, he took it and left his inferior arm; and although he may have been finally driven back, he kept his improved musket. So, too, on every field there were partial successes which in the early part of the war resulted in improved weapons; and although on another part of the field there may have been a reverse; the enemy had not the same advantage; the Confederate arms being generally inferior to those of their adversaries. The difference of arms was not so marked at a later day except in cavalry arms, in which we were always at a disadvantage, the celebrated Spencer carbine being generally in the hands of the enemy's cavalry during the last two years of the war.'




Not saying this is one of them but, battle guns changed hands everyday with out going thru an armory.

steve
SEJET

 

[SEJET]

Your having consecutive serial numbers on a pair this early and rare is a big WOW! Congrats!

THNX !!!!

I knew these consecutive low serial number first model Burnside carbines were special and........
I took a chance and brough these long separated siblings back home to Bristol, Rhode Inland where they were made.
O.K. Done.
Now I only have to get the other 198 first models that might be still out in the wilderness back home.

thnx
steve

 

[UCVRelics]

Thanks for the photos. Those are 2 awesome pieces.

 

[UCVRelics]

I would love to rename the Burnside 2nd models.

There are 2 other Burnsides with the same serial # which is the model 1864 as they restarted the serial # back to 0. Now if you could add those it would be AWESOME.

 

[Don Dixon]

When did the Confederate Ordnance Bureau start?

Josiah Gorgas was appointed Confederate chief of ordnance on 8 April 1861, and presumably the Ordnance Bureau would have been stood up shortly after that. Since the Confederates largely copied the structure of the "old army," it shouldn't have taken too long. In early 1861 the Federal Ordnance Office consisted of the Chief of Ordnance, an assistant, and several clerks. The lack of trained ordnance officers and enlisted men was a problem for both armies for the entirety of the war.

 

[SEJET]

Absent provenance, a C.S.A. marking on a firearm is virtually a guarantee that the weapon has been tampered with in a attempt to increase its value through an alleged Confederate association, since the Confederate Ordnance Bureau did not mark weapons with a C.S. or C.S.A. mark. There are markings that provide Southern provenance, but not those.

Note: The Battle of Corinth took place in October 1862. The First and Second Models of the Burnside carbine were in service by the Battle of Antietam in September 1862. This timing suggests Burnside carbines were available for use at Corinth. However, the provided information does not include specific documented evidence of their presence in that battle.

 

[JOHN42768]

Great looking consecutive Carbines