Bayonet info?

[jeremiahMC1776]

Can anyone help me identify this Bayonet. I do not know if it is from the Civil war or Revolution. it has some markings but is hard to read. I put on baby powder to make it more legible but I can't make out exactly what the stamp says. Any information to help identify this would be helpful. Thanks in advance.

 

[Yankeedave]

Looks pre civil war.

 

[jekct1212]

I agree with Yankeedave there's no clasp

 

[tbuckley]

I also agree with Yankeedave. Because of that flange (probably wrong term) ,I'm wondering if it might be Rev. War period Dutch or Germanic.

 

[tbuckley]

I finally got up and got out my copy of Neumann's Battle Weapons of the American Revolution and I think that it's a French Model 1774 or American copy.

 

[kevikens]

Well, there is one way to narrow it down. Do you know anyone who owns a Brown Bess or Charleville? If so, see if it will mount . If it mounts on a Charleville it could also have been for one of the early models of flintlock muskets made for the early US, like the models 1795 or 1816 which were modelled on the French musket. I echo the other responders. It looks to be far older than the US Civil War, though, that means it could have been used in that conflict on some of the .69 smoothbores still in use in 1861. By the way, if that hard to read inscription is the name of the maker I would go with a contract musket circa late 1700's to mid 19th century.

 

[Yankeedave]

Found listed as french model 1774 on google

 

[jeremiahMC1776]

Thanks for all the info guys. That helps narrow it down. I will see if it will fit on a Brown Bess.

 

[kevikens]

Something else that might help pin it down, the length. I have a brown Bess bayonet which according to Neumann's book is pretty much standard fare. The length is a 16 and 1/2 inch blade and is 19 and1/2 inches overall. By the way it was at one point tinned to retard rust and can be dated from the proof mark (small crown over 9) to sometime after 1771 so it was probably for the second model Bess. It was issued to the 7th regiment (fought at Monmouth Court House in 1778), Company A. The bayonet which came with my Model 1816 (pretty much a clone of the 1771 Charleville) is 17 and 1/2 inches overall with a shorter 13 and 1/2 inch blade. It is marked with a fairly large and deeply impressed US and in smaller letters JU. From your picture I am inclined to the smaller length and still think American contract bayonet of the above dates. Please, if you find out more write back and tell us what you found. As you might suspect, attributing original arms, documents, coins is a most pleasurable part of the hobby.

 

[jeremiahMC1776]

Something else that might help pin it down, the length. I have a brown Bess bayonet which according to Neumann's book is pretty much standard fare. The length is a 16 and 1/2 inch blade and is 19 and1/2 inches overall. By the way it was at one point tinned to retard rust and can be dated from the proof mark (small crown over 9) to sometime after 1771 so it was probably for the second model Bess. It was issued to the 7th regiment (fought at Monmouth Court House in 1778), Company A. The bayonet which came with my Model 1816 (pretty much a clone of the 1771 Charleville) is 17 and 1/2 inches overall with a shorter 13 and 1/2 inch blade. It is marked with a fairly large and deeply impressed US and in smaller letters JU. From your picture I am inclined to the smaller length and still think American contract bayonet of the above dates. Please, if you find out more write back and tell us what you found. As you might suspect, attributing original arms, documents, coins is a most pleasurable part of the hobby.

Thank you for the help. I will measure it later tonight when I get home and let you know. There are no proof marks (crown, etc.) that I can see on it. Just the unknown word you see in the pictures. I will get some measurements shortly. Thanks guys.

 

[7th Mississippi Infantry]

Hello jeremiahMC1776.

You have a very interesting bayonet.
I've enjoyed reading the responses to your question.

Welcome to the forums.

 

[jeremiahMC1776]

Something else that might help pin it down, the length. I have a brown Bess bayonet which according to Neumann's book is pretty much standard fare. The length is a 16 and 1/2 inch blade and is 19 and1/2 inches overall. By the way it was at one point tinned to retard rust and can be dated from the proof mark (small crown over 9) to sometime after 1771 so it was probably for the second model Bess. It was issued to the 7th regiment (fought at Monmouth Court House in 1778), Company A. The bayonet which came with my Model 1816 (pretty much a clone of the 1771 Charleville) is 17 and 1/2 inches overall with a shorter 13 and 1/2 inch blade. It is marked with a fairly large and deeply impressed US and in smaller letters JU. From your picture I am inclined to the smaller length and still think American contract bayonet of the above dates. Please, if you find out more write back and tell us what you found. As you might suspect, attributing original arms, documents, coins is a most pleasurable part of the hobby.

So the measurements came it to be about 17.5 inches full length and 13.5 inch blade length. Based on your information this sounds more consistent in size to the French pattern then the Brown Bess patern. Possibly like you guys said, an American copy of the French patern. Anyway, I will look into the French model some more and see it it all adds up. Thanks guys.

 

[jeremiahMC1776]

Hello jeremiahMC1776.

You have a very interesting bayonet.
I've enjoyed reading the responses to your question.

Welcome to the forums.

Thanks for the Welcome. Glad everyone has been so helpful helping me identify what I have.

 

[jeremiahMC1776]

Something else that might help pin it down, the length. I have a brown Bess bayonet which according to Neumann's book is pretty much standard fare. The length is a 16 and 1/2 inch blade and is 19 and1/2 inches overall. By the way it was at one point tinned to retard rust and can be dated from the proof mark (small crown over 9) to sometime after 1771 so it was probably for the second model Bess. It was issued to the 7th regiment (fought at Monmouth Court House in 1778), Company A. The bayonet which came with my Model 1816 (pretty much a clone of the 1771 Charleville) is 17 and 1/2 inches overall with a shorter 13 and 1/2 inch blade. It is marked with a fairly large and deeply impressed US and in smaller letters JU. From your picture I am inclined to the smaller length and still think American contract bayonet of the above dates. Please, if you find out more write back and tell us what you found. As you might suspect, attributing original arms, documents, coins is a most pleasurable part of the hobby.

So after further research, it appears it is possibly paterned from a 1747 british artillery carbine bayonet. The size, style, etc. seem to match up better than the French Chareville and older model Brown Bess.

 

[kevikens]

So after further research, it appears it is possibly paterned from a 1747 british artillery carbine bayonet. The size, style, etc. seem to match up better than the French Chareville and older model Brown Bess.

Could you share the information and sources that you used to arrive at your conclusion? I am very unfamiliar with that model and actually did not even know there was an artillery bayonet. Thanks

 

[jeremiahMC1776]

Could you share the information and sources that you used to arrive at your conclusion? I am very unfamiliar with that model and actually did not even know there was an artillery bayonet. Thanks

Here is the site that I found the info. The size and features seem to match the best to what mine is. http://www.jeffreyhayes.com/bayonets/1747_art.htm

 

[Package4]

At present, probably the most knowledgeable on bayonets is Paul D Johnson, who is working on a new book on bayonets, the first, with new information, since Robert Reilly's book in the 1990's. I'll forward the picture to Paul and see what he has to say; I do not think it is an artillery bayonet.

 

[Package4]

P

Can anyone help me identify this Bayonet. I do not know if it is from the Civil war or Revolution. it has some markings but is hard to read. I put on baby powder to make it more legible but I can't make out exactly what the stamp says. Any information to help identify this would be helpful. Thanks in advance.View attachment 115722 View attachment 115724 View attachment 115725

Please send a picture of the side with the mortise, I couldn't get a hold of Paul, but did speak with Tim Prince and he would like to see the other side. He thinks right now with just the picture you posted that it is as Yankeedave says, a French bayonet, circa 1740-1760. Tim has College Hill Arsenal and is very knowledgeable on bayonets.

 

[jeremiahMC1776]

P

Please send a picture of the side with the mortise, I couldn't get a hold of Paul, but did speak with Tim Prince and he would like to see the other side. He thinks right now with just the picture you posted that it is as Yankeedave says, a French bayonet, circa 1740-1760. Tim has College Hill Arsenal and is very knowledgeable on bayonets.

You might be right. I don't know very much about them. I only thought the artillery seemed to match the best as far as the size, design, etc. but I am probably wrong. Here are more photos. Sorry I took a lot. Wanted to give you various views. Thanks for the help. Let me know what you think.

 

[jeremiahMC1776]

I really wish I knew what the inscription said. Doesn't seem to match any names of makers I have seen on various bayonets photos online from that time.