Monuments After the fall

[RobertP]

I'm sorry - but for me to properly explain this - I would have to go into modern politics.

As a Michigan native, I understand - but I am not naive and misinformed on why and how those areas became that way. And I am sure neither are you.

The black owners set it up that way. Since they were in business to make money I figure they saw it as a way to maximize income. If they and their regulars weren't OK with it it wouldn't have been advertised as such.

 

[Dedej]

The first article you linked was from 1985, 32 years ago.

Correct. I can source other older sources as well. You know the saying, history can help us understand present. And when history and the past isn't discussed and healed - issues such as this will continue to happen - and people will continue to be the same.

As you know, in research and analyzing patterns and beliefs in towns/areas in the South - especially small areas like Demopolis - not too many things have shifted in growth and progression - in many areas. The legacy of that slavery and a false egoistical view of innate supremacy - is still very much alive there - and these debates/conversations such as this - showcase that.

 

[Dedej]

The black owners set it up that way. Since they were in business to make money I figure they saw it as a way to maximize income. If they and their regulars weren't OK with it it wouldn't have been advertised as such.

I am not versed on your example or the owners intentions - so I choose not to comment on it.

 

[RobertP]

I'm sure there is much change. I have never said that - nor implied that. I have only implied being mindful of others and their feelings. Especially, when there is a history via Slavery, Reconstruction, Jim Crow - where one portion of the community wasn't allow to voice their opinions and feelings. Or felt they couldn't for whatever reason.

I find it sad when older people can not see that - but then assume and/or imply sensitivities or misaligned priorities of those people - but not seeing that it is them who have those issues - and a lack of empathy.

In the end, that community will do what they want - and that usually means silencing those who they feel shouldn't have the right to voice their feelings and the right to feel comfortable.

Oh, I understand. My father grew up in a very small Mississippi town. When I was young he would say occasionally that if he had been born black he would have been a Communist. And that was when being a Commie was a scary thing. But we knew what he meant and he was a kind and generous man to all people unless they screwed him around. I think there are a lot more fair minded people than not and I'm just sayin' that things have been a lot worse.

 

[Dedej]

That is what I was thinking, especially when many of these non-diverse towns were once, it not still considered "sundown."

I love Dr. Loewen and have studied his work on Sundown towns. Many towns one wouldn't label or categorized as a Sundown town - can actually be one -- but indeed Demopolis is not one. They can't based on their racial demographics.

A Sundown town is a place/community - that is primary if not fully non-Black towns. But, that is not to say a historical and documented pattern of racism and/or racist beliefs based off of their legacy of slavery cannot and is not a great presence there in Demopolis.

 

[cash]

Though we have been putting all of these monument stories in common state-based threads in Chat, I read this article and knew it had to be put here. It talks about one monument, one city, but includes the type of discussions we ought to be having across the South. While I am an unabashed monument supporter, this is an important and thought provoking discussion of the issue of Confederate monuments. We need to have respect for one another and each other's opinions, feelings and beliefs. In the spirit of Demopolis, keep your comments civil.



After the fall
When a crash toppled a Confederate statue, a Southern town – half black, half white – collided with its past
Story by David Montgomery
Photos by Jahi Chikwendiu
Published on July 20, 2017
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About 3:30 a.m. on a Saturday last July, an on-duty patrol car with the Demopolis, Ala., Police Department proceeded along North Main Avenue toward West Capitol Street. It was a clear night, and nothing much was going on. There hadn't been an arrest for two days, and that had been for misdemeanor theft from a supermarket. The squad car rolled past the bank and the power company on the left , the town square on the right. Up ahead, in the center of the intersection, loomed a monument: a marble statue of a soldier, not quite life-size, elevated about a dozen feet on a granite pedestal. He was gazing south, toward the oncoming patrol car. The butt of his upturned rifle rested at his boots; a blanket roll was draped over his left shoulder. Negotiating the intersection required a slight swerve around the monument — but the police officer crashed straight into it. The impact of the Dodge Charger broke off the soldier at the shins and put him on his back amid the shrubs and flowers around the monument. His cropped boots remained on the pedestal. Undamaged was the inscription on the base: "Our Confederate Dead."

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/st...-to-confront-its-past/?utm_term=.55484cb6d100

I suggest merging this thread with the original thread on the monument:

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/de...e-soldier-will-not-return-to-monument.133672/

And then cleansing it of the off-topic posts about other towns.

 

[cash]

I have to say adding a new structure - whether it's not an Confederate Solider or not - is a waste of money and still not showing mindfulness or care about Black people in that town or their ancestors history/experience there. Especially, a town such as Demopolis. It has even been called one of the most racist towns in America.

It has a very racist history+reputation and poor town - the medium HHI is 35K. So, spending 50K for a statue - instead of investing in their community and schools is mind-blowing to me.

This can be seen as not caring or really thinking of others -- and not showing progression.

From the article, it seems the town has risen above its racist past for the most part, though it also appears there is more work to be done and the residents appear willing to do that work. The money would come from the insurance company, not the town's taxes, except for perhaps the $5,000 deductible, so that's not much of a factor. They can only get the money to fix the statue, not to spend on anything else, so it's not taking money from some other program.

I think restoring the statue and erecting a statue to the USCT and having them both together would be symbolic of promoting racial healing.

 

[Mild53]

She didn't say it, though it was very much implied. If one group can prevent the restoration of the monument to Confederate dead, their feelings do, very much, take precedence over those wanting to see it restored.

"Very much implied"? Hogwash.

It seems to me that it is hard enough to have a open, helpful dialog about what each of us writes. Reacting based on what you think is implied makes it near impossible.

You have reacted stongly in posts to others reading into your comments. I agree with you.

 

[Mild53]

I'm pretty sure one can find a place more racist than a town that's pretty much 50-50 black/white. I consider towns that are almost all one race to be by definition racist. Same for States that are near 99% white.

You may consider places like Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine to have more racists than some states of the deep south, but you would be wrong. VERY wrong.

 

[Phiip McBride]

Excellent article of an issue I wrestle with, as do many, many of us.

 

[RobertP]

You may consider places like Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine to have more racists than some states of the deep south, but you would be wrong. VERY wrong.

How could you possibly know that?

 

[Mild53]

Excellent article of an issue I wrestle with, as do many, many of us.

Agreed, the issue is "nuanced". Taking all one side or all the other is not a helpful approach.

 

[Mild53]

How could you possibly know that?

Well, you stated your opinion based on your perceptions, and I stated my opinion based on my perceptions. Having lived in New England and the South I'd say that overt racism is much more present in the south. Are New Englanders implicitly biased, meaning that they act in biased ways even if they don't verbally admit it? Unfortunately yes, but not more so than those in the deep south.

Bias against African Americans is a problem everywhere and is in all of us. As Smokey the Bear might say, "only you can prevent racism".

 

[CMWinkler]

"Very much implied"? Hogwash.

OK, I inferred it then.

It seems to me that it is hard enough to have a open, helpful dialog about what each of us writes. Reacting based on what you think is implied makes it near impossible.

As you were saying things tend to be nuanced. It amazes me that my opinion based on another posters comments would trouble you so deeply.

You have reacted stongly in posts to others reading into your comments. I agree with you.

It depends upon what, exactly, they are trying to infer. Again, I did not attack Dedej, I merely was trying to understand. I have explained that already so we're probably finished.

 

[Mild53]

How could you possibly know that?

Oh and here's a top ten list of racist states. Deep south at the top, New England nearer the bottom. However, i can't tell how this was created. Does it simply match what we already think or it based on some data? Don't know.

https://www.thetoptens.com/most-racists-states-us/mississippi-459201.asp

 

[Mild53]

It amazes me that my opinion based on another posters comments would trouble you so deeply.

I am not at all troubled.

The word moderate comes from Latin, "reduced or controlled" and the early English, "modest". So a Moderator's role is to moderate or to make things less extreme.

Your participation in this thread did the opposite, by implying meaning in a poster's comments that were not there you inflamed the discussion and belittled the contribution of a poster. The poster did not say that the opinions and desires of those who want to preserve the monument were invalid, the poster added information on the views of those who may not like to monument.

When a moderator is not acting as a moderator, who takes action? Vigilante moderators. If your perception is that I am more actively involved than the subject would dictate, you are correct.

 

[RobertP]

Oh and here's a top ten list of racist states. Deep south at the top, New England nearer the bottom. However, i can't tell how this was created. Does it simply match what we already think or it based on some data? Don't know.

https://www.thetoptens.com/most-racists-states-us/mississippi-459201.asp

Mississippi is about 40% black. People seem to be getting along there pretty well. Let 8 or 9 hundred thousand African Americans move to Maine from NYC, Buffalo, Philly and Baltimore to duplicate that demographic and then we can compare apples to apples. K?

 

[Dedej]

Mississippi is about 40% black. People seem to be getting along there pretty well. Let 8 or 9 hundred thousand African Americans move to Maine from NYC, Buffalo, Philly and Baltimore to duplicate that demographic and then we can compare apples to apples. K?

I don't understand - as none of those states have Confederate Monuments (I don't think....) and I don't understand how Black Americans moving or living to those areas have anything to do with the South. As it's different histories in terms of racism and Black people in America.

There is a reason for the high percentage in Mississippi - the doc in this thread gives a great history on why - and it explains why there are still issues and divisive beliefs there - plus the remnant of Black Americans in the state.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/full-documentary-mississippi's-war-slavery-and-secession-mpb.120860/#post-1261550

 

[CMWinkler]

I am not at all troubled.

The word moderate comes from Latin, "reduced or controlled" and the early English, "modest". So a Moderator's role is to moderate or to make things less extreme.

Your participation in this thread did the opposite, by implying meaning in a poster's comments that were not there you inflamed the discussion and belittled the contribution of a poster. The poster did not say that the opinions and desires of those who want to preserve the monument were invalid, the poster added information on the views of those who may not like to monument.

When a moderator is not acting as a moderator, who takes action? Vigilante moderators. If your perception is that I am more actively involved than the subject would dictate, you are correct.

I appreciate your criticism. If you feel my comments in any way, violate forum rules feel free to report me and other moderators will be happy to punish me for any violation.

 

[wingatecivilwar5]

Why after all these years are these monuments an issue? Does tearing them down make people feel better? Where does it stop? Whats next do we start dismantling the monuments to the Confederacy at Vicksburg, Gettysburg, Antietam ect? Where does it stop? Talking about hate "they are a sign of hate" whats tearing them down then? A sign of hate so isn't taking monuments down showing hate toward another person or people, how is that right? A family has ancestors who served and now people after 150 years want to take that away from them. Its not right. No one is claiming that slavery or the miss treatment of African Americans was right or moral. what does that have to do with what men did on the battlefield? The soldiers felt they were fighting for the "right" reason or cause and the veterans of those units want to honor their service along with the men who died. I hate when we play this well" it offends me argument" we can't make everyone happy and by destroying our history were making people unhappy. If I say I am offended the reply to me is your racist. No I'm not I am an American who is proud of his country even if I don't agree with everything its done.