Monuments After the fall

[CMWinkler]

Though we have been putting all of these monument stories in common state-based threads in Chat, I read this article and knew it had to be put here. It talks about one monument, one city, but includes the type of discussions we ought to be having across the South. While I am an unabashed monument supporter, this is an important and thought provoking discussion of the issue of Confederate monuments. We need to have respect for one another and each other's opinions, feelings and beliefs. In the spirit of Demopolis, keep your comments civil.



After the fall
When a crash toppled a Confederate statue, a Southern town – half black, half white – collided with its past
Story by David Montgomery
Photos by Jahi Chikwendiu
Published on July 20, 2017
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About 3:30 a.m. on a Saturday last July, an on-duty patrol car with the Demopolis, Ala., Police Department proceeded along North Main Avenue toward West Capitol Street. It was a clear night, and nothing much was going on. There hadn't been an arrest for two days, and that had been for misdemeanor theft from a supermarket. The squad car rolled past the bank and the power company on the left , the town square on the right. Up ahead, in the center of the intersection, loomed a monument: a marble statue of a soldier, not quite life-size, elevated about a dozen feet on a granite pedestal. He was gazing south, toward the oncoming patrol car. The butt of his upturned rifle rested at his boots; a blanket roll was draped over his left shoulder. Negotiating the intersection required a slight swerve around the monument — but the police officer crashed straight into it. The impact of the Dodge Charger broke off the soldier at the shins and put him on his back amid the shrubs and flowers around the monument. His cropped boots remained on the pedestal. Undamaged was the inscription on the base: "Our Confederate Dead."

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/st...-to-confront-its-past/?utm_term=.55484cb6d100

 

[Jimklag]

Though we have been putting all of these monument stories in common state-based threads in Chat, I read this article and knew it had to be put here. It talks about one monument, one city, but includes the type of discussions we ought to be having across the South. While I am an unabashed monument supporter, this is an important and thought provoking discussion of the issue of Confederate monuments. We need to have respect for one another and each other's opinions, feelings and beliefs. In the spirit of Demopolis, keep your comments civil.



After the fall
When a crash toppled a Confederate statue, a Southern town – half black, half white – collided with its past
Story by David Montgomery
Photos by Jahi Chikwendiu
Published on July 20, 2017
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About 3:30 a.m. on a Saturday last July, an on-duty patrol car with the Demopolis, Ala., Police Department proceeded along North Main Avenue toward West Capitol Street. It was a clear night, and nothing much was going on. There hadn't been an arrest for two days, and that had been for misdemeanor theft from a supermarket. The squad car rolled past the bank and the power company on the left , the town square on the right. Up ahead, in the center of the intersection, loomed a monument: a marble statue of a soldier, not quite life-size, elevated about a dozen feet on a granite pedestal. He was gazing south, toward the oncoming patrol car. The butt of his upturned rifle rested at his boots; a blanket roll was draped over his left shoulder. Negotiating the intersection required a slight swerve around the monument — but the police officer crashed straight into it. The impact of the Dodge Charger broke off the soldier at the shins and put him on his back amid the shrubs and flowers around the monument. His cropped boots remained on the pedestal. Undamaged was the inscription on the base: "Our Confederate Dead."

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/st...-to-confront-its-past/?utm_term=.55484cb6d100

Great article.

 

[gem]

It's not monuments people really care about.

It's the fact that monuments provide a sounding board for issues people on both sides want to talk about.

That's what the article illustrates.

 

[Dedej]

I have to say adding a new structure - whether it's not an Confederate Solider or not - is a waste of money and still not showing mindfulness or care about Black people in that town or their ancestors history/experience there. Especially, a town such as Demopolis. It has even been called one of the most racist towns in America.

It has a very racist history+reputation and poor town - the medium HHI is 35K. So, spending 50K for a statue - instead of investing in their community and schools is mind-blowing to me.

This can be seen as not caring or really thinking of others -- and not showing progression.

 

[Jimklag]

I have to say adding a new structure - whether it's not an Confederate Solider or not - is a waste of money and still not showing mindfulness or care about Black people in that town or their ancestors history/experience there. Especially, a town such as Demopolis. It has even been called one of the most racist towns in America.

It has a very racist history+reputation and poor town - the medium HHI is 35K. So, spending 50K for a statue - instead of investing in their community and schools is mind-blowing to me.

This can be seen as not caring or really thinking of others -- and not showing progression.

At the risk of sounding racist, I'm not sure it has to be just about sympathy for black people. There was a family mentioned in the article that could trace back to eleven ancestors who fought in the war. I'm guessing they are not unique. The opinions of all the people of Demopolis matter. It is okay to be either for or against repairing the monument. It is not necessary to be either for or against one group of people ir another.

 

[Dedej]

At the risk of sounding racist, I'm not sure it has to be just about sympathy for black people. There was a family mentioned in the article that could trace back to eleven ancestors who fought in the war. I'm guessing they are not unique. The opinions of all the people of Demopolis matter. It is okay to be either for or against repairing the monument. It is not necessary to be either for or against one group of people ir another.

I get and respect your point/opinion.

Honoring ancestors is great - and it should be done - but thinking about others is also something one should do. I would say the same if the shoe was on the other foot. Just like they can trace back ancestors - so can the Black residents. And yes ... ALL people. But, it appears - all may have voiced their opinion -- but their feelings and opinions were ignored IMO.

The one thing that was constant in that article - was how the monument made the non-white residents feel and how they felt they couldn't say anything. Or how white residents didn't even know how it made others feel? or couldn't even understand.

It also talked about the current racial climate in the town. Segregated proms, segregated areas of towns and a quick Google search will easily show many stories of racial issues there.

So, I am not sure how adding something back in another form - showcases care and truly understanding how other taxpayers feel. Nor wanting a progressive change. You can progress and still honor your ancestors.

It's not about having sympathy for Black people - it's about being mindful that others have opposite histories of oneself. And understanding and finding a way to still honor your ancestors while understanding that.

I am not against monuments - but I think there are other ways to honor ancestors - and help the community as a whole with that money. It's one thing if it was up - but it's not anymore. I would take that as a sign of change.

 

[CMWinkler]

I get and respect your point/opinion.

Honoring ancestors is great - and it should be done - but thinking about others is also something one should do. I would say the same if the shoe was on the other foot. Just like they can trace back ancestors - so can the Black residents. And yes ... ALL people. But, it appears - all my have voiced their opinion -- but their feelings and opinions were ignored IMO.

The one thing that was constant in that article - was how the monument made the non-white residents feel and how they felt they couldn't say anything. Or how white residents didn't even know how it made others feel? or couldn't even understand.

It also talked about the current racial climate in the town. Segregated proms, segregated areas of towns and a quick Google search will easily show many stories of racial issues there.

So, I am not sure how adding something back in another form - showcases care and truly understanding how other taxpayers feel. Nor wanting a progressive change. You can progress and still honor your ancestors.

It's not about having sympathy for Black people - it's about being mindful that others have opposite histories of oneself. And understanding and finding a way to still honor your ancestors while understanding that.

I am not against monuments - but I think there are other ways to honor ancestors - and help the community as a whole with that money. It's one thing if it was up - but it's not anymore. I would take that as a sign of change.

Let me ask a question. If the monument was restored with private money, would that affect your views?

 

[huskerblitz]

At the risk of sounding racist, I'm not sure it has to be just about sympathy for black people. There was a family mentioned in the article that could trace back to eleven ancestors who fought in the war. I'm guessing they are not unique. The opinions of all the people of Demopolis matter. It is okay to be either for or against repairing the monument. It is not necessary to be either for or against one group of people ir another.

And this is going to be a constant problem for places like the United States where there isn't just one shared background. At some point there are going to be clashes where one group wants to remember this or that and that same thing will offend another group. There is no getting around it. I also don't think everything done is geared towards offending the others. It's a two-way street from both sides. But at some point something has to give. But we live in a society where everyone seems to be offended at something and thinks (demands?) something done. But what about those who support it? Are they not permitted to have that freedom to celebrate what they want?

Disclosure...my post includes a number of things, not just monuments. But I wanted to try to avoid too many modern topics.

 

[Dedej]

Let me ask a question. If the monument was restored with private money, would that affect your views?

I don't know... I guess not. I just don't think it should be in the middle of town. Maybe a park, cemetery, private property, museum. Like I mentioned - I am not against them - just being mindful how others feel. Not just - "well these are MY ancestors" and they did this. Ignoring what they did or fought for - wasn't what was best for the other residents - in their eyes and hearts.

I just care about how everyone feels. I get it's someone's family and their family story. But, what about the other person's story.

I would want to know ....are they comfortable? Does this invoke anything sadness or worry in them?

I think what someone said in the article would be best - if it has to happen - two statues honoring both sides would be great. But, I don't think that would happen.

Or just one that says to not only the Confederates but the enslaved who also lost their lives. Not just those we lost in the war - being specific and showing inclusion of their Black residents could be very healing.

 

[Jimklag]

I get and respect your point/opinion.

Honoring ancestors is great - and it should be done - but thinking about others is also something one should do. I would say the same if the shoe was on the other foot. Just like they can trace back ancestors - so can the Black residents. And yes ... ALL people. But, it appears - all my have voiced their opinion -- but their feelings and opinions were ignored IMO.

The one thing that was constant in that article - was how the monument made the non-white residents feel and how they felt they couldn't say anything. Or how white residents didn't even know how it made others feel? or couldn't even understand.

It also talked about the current racial climate in the town. Segregated proms, segregated areas of towns and a quick Google search will easily show many stories of racial issues there.

So, I am not sure how adding something back in another form - showcases care and truly understanding how other taxpayers feel. Nor wanting a progressive change. You can progress and still honor your ancestors.

It's not about having sympathy for Black people - it's about being mindful that others have opposite histories of oneself. And understanding and finding a way to still honor your ancestors while understanding that.

I am not against monuments - but I think there are other ways to honor ancestors - and help the community as a whole with that money. It's one thing if it was up - but it's not anymore. I would take that as a sign of change.

I appreciate that the African-American community possesses a different and legitimate viewpoint from just about everyone else and that some are, at a minimum, uneasy with the public display of monuments to confederate notables. The monument discussed in the article linked in the OP is to a common, ordinary soldier who represents the rank and file and not the elite. Maybe a compromise along the line of permitting monuments like the one to the average soldier in Demopolis vs. Statues/monuments to the leaders of the confederacy is a possible starting point.

 

[CMWinkler]

I don't know... I guess not. I just don't think it should be in the middle of town. Maybe a park, cemetery, private property, museum. Like I mentioned - I am not against them - just being mindful how others feel. Not just - "well these are MY ancestors" and they did this. Ignoring what they did or fought for - wasn't what was best for the other residents - in their eyes ad hearts.

OK, then that makes it clear to me where you stand. You think that one person's feelings take precedence over others. That honoring Confederate dead must be done in a manner "acceptable" to those who oppose any mention of them. You see, I thought from your earlier statement it was about the money that could be used for all. That position I fully understand and accept, though in this case taxpayer money isn't being used, insurance money is. This new position I find far more difficult to understand.

I just care about how everyone feels. I get it's someone's family and their family story. But, what about the other person's story.

No matter what is done, there will be those who remain unsatisfied. I'm afraid that's the way of the world. I am a bit puzzled though what about this monument that prevent other people's stories from being told.

I would want to know ....are they comfortable? Does this invoke anything sadness or worry in them?

Your compassion does you credit but may be a bit misplaced here. If the sight of a marble monument is enough to adversely affect one's life than one needs to reassess one's priorities. Of course, the opposite is equally true.

I think what someone said in the article would be best - if it has to happen - two statues honoring both sides would be great. But, I don't think that would happen.

You want a monument to Union dead from Demopolis? I'm certainly fine with that. A monument to Union dead in general? Not so much.

Or just one that says to not only the Confederates but the enslaved who also lost their lives. Not just those we lost in the war - being specific and showing inclusion of their Black residents could be very healing.

Enslaved who lost their lives in the war? I'm fine with that, too. Something more amorphous than that, again, not so much. I'm much older than you are, and based upon experience, I don't see anything healing the racial rift but time and a conscious decision to stop trying to purposely pit the races against one another. It certainly won't happen in my lifetime, and I doubt within my children's but I really hope that in my grandchildren's it will be.

 

[Dedej]

OK, then that makes it clear to me where you stand. You think that one person's feelings take precedence over others. That honoring Confederate dead must be done in a manner "acceptable" to those who oppose any mention of them. You see, I thought from your earlier statement it was about the money that could be used for all. That position I fully understand and accept, though in this case taxpayer money isn't being used, insurance money is. This new position I find far more difficult to understand.

I don't think so. I think both are right up there together. But, you have a right to your opinion.

It's not about being acceptable. A statue is acceptable. But, in a town or public area for all - I would think that it should make all and/or the majority of the residents agree on it's presence and on the same page - that it should be there. And from the article - It sounds like their residents are not all on the same page. Insurance money or not.

No matter what is done, there will be those who remain unsatisfied. I'm afraid that's the way of the world. I am a bit puzzled though what about this monument that prevent other people's stories from being told.

I agree. I don't think it stops anyone - it doesn't. And I really HOPE that the Black residents do. But, let's be realistic -- they don't have organizations set up + -it appears - that most don't have the income and education so... they don't have the funds or know how. But, hopefully they will one day -- and it will be interesting how and if they get any backlash - if they tried.

Your compassion does you credit but may be a bit misplaced here. If the sight of a marble monument is enough to adversely affect one's life than one needs to reassess one's priorities. Of course, the opposite is equally true.

Thank you Everyone is different. I can hear a song and it can adversely affect me for a little while. So, I can imagine that a statue could for some. Would it for me? I don't know. I don't live in such a place.

But, it's a possibility -- and my priorities are well placed and aligned in my life. Things, events, memories - evoke emotions, feelings and can affect how one feels about themselves. Put that on top of how one may feel or are being treated - it can definitely do that. I don't live there - but that's a pretty human experience.

You want a monument to Union dead from Demopolis? I'm certainly fine with that. A monument to Union dead in general? Not so much.

I don't know what's right or wrong. I just think a conversation - another one should happen. I would think a playground - and dedicate to the descendants of the soldiers and enslaved. I think that's pretty sweet.

Enslaved who lost their lives in the war? I'm fine with that, too. Something more amorphous than that, again, not so much. I'm much older than you are, and based upon experience, I don't see anything healing the racial rift but time and a conscious decision to stop trying to purposely pit the races against one another. It certainly won't happen in my lifetime, and I doubt within my children's but I really hope that in my grandchildren's it will be.

I don't think this is pitting anyone against anyone. If anything - the monument is aiding in that. Believe it or not... it does.

In town like this, I agree. I think it will always be like that - and at one point - if Black people want a change - they must make one or leave. It's that clear - but I also know from visiting Alabama - they are in another mindset and situation - that they inherited from their ancestors. Thank God my parents got out of Alabama. I love to visit for a day or so... but I couldn't' imagine that experience.

 

[gem]

Are we to believe that public monuments are necessary to honor ancestors?

Or is it more likely that monuments are used as a springboard for other issues ?

 

[huskerblitz]

Are we to believe that public monuments are necessary to honor ancestors?

Or is it more likely that monuments are used as a springboard for other issues ?

You're attempting to establish a false equivalency, again. Is it necessary to fly the US flag outside every courthouse? Are we to forget what country owns the land? Is it necessary for girls to wear crucifix neckless to show their faith? Is it necessary to have statues of Lincoln in all sorts of locations? Of course it's not necessary. But people do it to show pride in something. Necessary? Who even said public monuments were a necessity?

But I can agree with your second part. It's very likely to springboard into a conversation about which medium is better, bronze or stone.

 

[gem]

You're attempting to establish a false equivalency, again. Is it necessary to fly the US flag outside every courthouse? Are we to forget what country owns the land? Is it necessary for girls to wear crucifix neckless to show their faith? Is it necessary to have statues of Lincoln in all sorts of locations? Of course it's not necessary. But people do it to show pride in something. Necessary? Who even said public monuments were a necessity?

But I can agree with your second part. It's very likely to springboard into a conversation about which medium is better, bronze or stone.

"Confounding the battle lines was one inconvenient fact that everyone, black and white, could agree on: Until that Saturday morning a year ago, the soldier had stood guard almost entirely without controversy. Nobody protested him, nobody celebrated him. It was only after he was gone that he mattered."

Thus, I stand by my original position.

 

[huskerblitz]

"Confounding the battle lines was one inconvenient fact that everyone, black and white, could agree on: Until that Saturday morning a year ago, the soldier had stood guard almost entirely without controversy. Nobody protested him, nobody celebrated him. It was only after he was gone that he mattered."

Thus, I stand by my original position.

You can stand by it, but your position is still wrong. A monument does not necessitate anything. You're simply wanting to pigeon hole the conversation one direction.

 

[chellers]

Why not a simple memorial to peace, loving, caring, understanding, unity? Such would contribute to healing of a very divisive community. It's a small step, but it's a community that needs to start somewhere. Another confederate monument would only reinforce feelings of antagonism and pain to half the town's populace which, by its very location, are reminded on a daily basis of the remaining entrenched segregation.

We are all of one human race. It is time for peace and unity to prevail among brothers and sisters of all colors.

 

[gem]

Why not a simple memorial to peace, loving, caring, understanding, unity? Such would contribute to healing of a very divisive community. It's a small step, but it's a community that needs to start somewhere. Another confederate monument would only reinforce feelings of antagonism and pain to half the town's populace which, by its very location, are reminded on a daily basis of the remaining entrenched segregation.

We are all of one human race. It is time for peace and unity to prevail among brothers and sisters of all colors.

Perhaps someday but right now enough people feel that lots of monuments are necessary in order to honor their ancestors so we're not there yet. Likely, with successive generations we'll get closer to that point.

 

[Mild53]

Though we have been putting all of these monument stories in common state-based threads in Chat, I read this article and knew it had to be put here. It talks about one monument, one city, but includes the type of discussions we ought to be having across the South. While I am an unabashed monument supporter, this is an important and thought provoking discussion of the issue of Confederate monuments. We need to have respect for one another and each other's opinions, feelings and beliefs. In the spirit of Demopolis, keep your comments civil.



After the fall
When a crash toppled a Confederate statue, a Southern town – half black, half white – collided with its past
Story by David Montgomery
Photos by Jahi Chikwendiu
Published on July 20, 2017
Share on Facebook

Share on Twitter

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Share via Email

More Options
About 3:30 a.m. on a Saturday last July, an on-duty patrol car with the Demopolis, Ala., Police Department proceeded along North Main Avenue toward West Capitol Street. It was a clear night, and nothing much was going on. There hadn't been an arrest for two days, and that had been for misdemeanor theft from a supermarket. The squad car rolled past the bank and the power company on the left , the town square on the right. Up ahead, in the center of the intersection, loomed a monument: a marble statue of a soldier, not quite life-size, elevated about a dozen feet on a granite pedestal. He was gazing south, toward the oncoming patrol car. The butt of his upturned rifle rested at his boots; a blanket roll was draped over his left shoulder. Negotiating the intersection required a slight swerve around the monument — but the police officer crashed straight into it. The impact of the Dodge Charger broke off the soldier at the shins and put him on his back amid the shrubs and flowers around the monument. His cropped boots remained on the pedestal. Undamaged was the inscription on the base: "Our Confederate Dead."

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/st...-to-confront-its-past/?utm_term=.55484cb6d100

EXCELLENT article, thoughful and nuanced. It seems balanced to me. I hope that anyone who responds to posts in this thread reads it first. Its long... Thank you CM for posting this!

 

[Mild53]

At the risk of sounding racist, I'm not sure it has to be just about sympathy for black people. There was a family mentioned in the article that could trace back to eleven ancestors who fought in the war. I'm guessing they are not unique. The opinions of all the people of Demopolis matter. It is okay to be either for or against repairing the monument. It is not necessary to be either for or against one group of people ir another.

Are you sure that every family that had a confederate ancestor is proud of that fact?