Edged Wpns 1860 Scabbard Drag

[bayonet]

Well since I had luck on my Enfield question now I'll try this. Again many years ago (over 35) I picked up my first Civil War item a 1860 Cavalry sword dated 1859 (heard AMES stated making them in 1858). The Drag of the Scabbard does not match any I've ever seen. Sword fits perfect in the scabbard too. Another expert thought it was worn down hence its name Drag. Like the Trooper had the bottom end dragging all over several States (guess he lost his Horse and had to walk!). I include the photos of it in the middle. The other top & bottom are the 1840 Wristbreaker by Tiffany of NY and the Artillery Saber.
So what does everyone think? Is it the correct scabbard and was it worn down from being "dragged"? Thanks, Jim

 

[UCVRelics]

Interesting. Could you post a photo of the edge (looking at it straight on) of the one in question?

 

[bayonet]

photo of the edge? Do you mean the edge of the sword as in the blade? Or the edge of the scabbard with a pic of it looking straight up from bottom to top?

 

[UCVRelics]

photo of the edge? Do you mean the edge of the sword as in the blade? Or the edge of the scabbard with a pic of it looking straight up from bottom to top?

From this angle. The more I look at it, it may be a Bleckmann.
photo courtesy of the relicman

 

[bobinwmass]

That amount of wear on the drag of an enlisted cavalry saber is unusual. The owner would have to have done an awful lot of walking. I have seen instances when a state volunteer infantry foot officer has been presented with a cavalry officer style saber, and in that case wear on the drag would be expected. Wear like yours is much more common on foot officer swords. I have one foot officer sword from a guy who must have had short legs. The drag is worn away, same angle as yours, until a hole was made in the metal scabbard body.

 

[bayonet]

ucvrelics does this pic help?

 

[UCVRelics]

ucvrelics does this pic help?View attachment 394291

Yep, I still think its a Bleckmann scabbard

 

[bobinwmass]

Here are the drags of 2 Roby sabers dated 1863 in my collection. One has almost no wear and the other is a bit misshapen from dragging the ground, though not as much as yours.

Here are the drags of 2 officer swords also showing similar wear, the top a foot officer, the bottom a staff & field.

I think it is quite possible that your scabbard is original to the saber, and that the shape to your scabbard drag (as well as the Bleckmann shown by @ucvrelics) is due to wear and not design. The early year of yours gives a much longer period of use to create such wear as compared to many of the later ones we see. The Bleckmanns also were imported by Ames early in the war, and most also show signs of heavy wear. The scabbards are interchangeable.

 

[bayonet]

Thanks for the info. Might of been the poor Sod thought he was going to have it easy riding through the duration of the War but ends up walking instead. Next up some research on the Bleckmann.

 

[James N.]

Thanks for the info. Might of been the poor Sod thought he was going to have it easy riding through the duration of the War but ends up walking instead. Next up some research on the Bleckmann.

These parts are called drags for the obvious reason; however, an unusual side story I read many years ago in a now-forgotten source may be of help: Supposedly, during the French Revolution it was "cool" for a cavalryman or mounted officer to literally drag and bang your sabre around to show what a stud you were; hence, having a prefect-condition scabbard and drag conversely demonstrated that you were a totally green, callow youth not worth paying attention to. It therefore became the fashion for beau sabreurs to deliberately grind down the drag on one side and continue to drag and bang the scabbard along the ground as noisily as possible to impress your friends and the ladies that you were really a battle-tested and scarred veteran!

 

[bayonet]

Can't find any info on Bleckmann or its Scabbards. Ucvrelics since you dug it up can you provide more info on it? Thanks

 

[UCVRelics]

Can't find any info on Bleckmann or its Scabbards. Ucvrelics since you dug it up can you provide more info on it? Thanks

http://www.relicman.com/weapons/Weapon6620-Sword-Cavalry-Model-1860-Bleckmann.html

 

[Geowassung]

Well since I had luck on my Enfield question now I'll try this. Again many years ago (over 35) I picked up my first Civil War item a 1860 Cavalry sword dated 1859 (heard AMES stated making them in 1858). The Drag of the Scabbard does not match any I've ever seen. Sword fits perfect in the scabbard too. Another expert thought it was worn down hence its name Drag. Like the Trooper had the bottom end dragging all over several States (guess he lost his Horse and had to walk!). I include the photos of it in the middle. The other top & bottom are the 1840 Wristbreaker by Tiffany of NY and the Artillery Saber.
So what does everyone think? Is it the correct scabbard and was it worn down from being "dragged"? Thanks, JimView attachment 394118View attachment 394119

Very interesting, poor soldier. That's a lot of walking and dragging. Or, maybe he was just short. Great looking swords. I just bought some sort of a knock off (I think) it looks like the middle one in your pic and the scabbord looks like the bottom one of yours. I posted several pics on an earlier threAd of mine. I am still asking questions and considering how or if I want to restore it. It may be a fake. If so, it is a good one. Very solid and as "battle ready" as others that I have.
Cheers and good luck.

 

[bobinwmass]

Here is another Bleckmann with some additional info, though I don't think your scabbard is necessarily a mismatched Bleckmann. It could very likely be the original Ames with a well-worn drag.
https://www.virginiarelics.com/brands/virginia-relics/product/pc7612/

 

[bayonet]

bobinmass that looks 100% correct, that Bleckmann drag looks nothing like my drag. So I'll go with it's a AMES scabbard that is well worn. Plus mine is dated 1859 and the Bleckmann sabers & scabbards came here in 1861-62. Thanks

 

[bayonet]

is it me or is www.relicman.com site down? ucvrelics link won't pop up even if I do it manually

 

[Geowassung]

Apologies, I'm still new to CWT. Do most of you your own restoration of your finds, or do you use a service? Not sure if that is the right terminology.

 

[James N.]

Apologies, I'm still new to CWT. Do most of you your own restoration of your finds, or do you use a service? Not sure if that is the right terminology.

Back when I was actively collecting in the 1980's I had a late friend and mentor Robert Justice who was an absolute whiz at restoration! He rewrapped the leather and/or wire on several of my sword grips and did other restoration and costuming work for me as well. I purchased many of my guns from a well-established antique gunshop and their gunsmith did most of the work necessary on my guns. Since losing those resources, about all I do personally is cleaning off surface rust and dirt and occasionally polishing brass, etc.

 

[Geowassung]

Back when I was actively collecting in the 1980's I had a late friend and mentor Robert Justice who was an absolute whiz at restoration! He rewrapped the leather and/or wire on several of my sword grips and did other restoration and costuming work for me as well. I purchased many of my guns from a well-established antique gunshop and their gunsmith did most of the work necessary on my guns. Since losing those resources, about all I do personally is cleaning off surface rust and dirt and occasionally polishing brass, etc.

Thank You mate.
I an not really a collector (yet,lol), but have had a fascination with knives,swords, and all other pointy things. I remember dreaming as a little kid about the Rifleman's riffle, but it was the broken sabre in the Chuck Connors series, Branded that really got me. I dreamed of that thing many times. So my recent find is almost a "dream" come true, even if it isn't authentic.il I posted several pics in another thread. I am not yet sure how to navigate this platform, or I would send you there. I will probably work on the sword and scabbord and show my progress on that thread.
Again, thanks.

Cheers

 

[Geowassung]

Back when I was actively collecting in the 1980's I had a late friend and mentor Robert Justice who was an absolute whiz at restoration! He rewrapped the leather and/or wire on several of my sword grips and did other restoration and costuming work for me as well. I purchased many of my guns from a well-established antique gunshop and their gunsmith did most of the work necessary on my guns. Since losing those resources, about all I do personally is cleaning off surface rust and dirt and occasionally polishing brass, etc.

I also wanted to say that I would appreciate your thoughts on my find.
Thanks.