Handguns Pistol training for cavalrymen?

[Old Soldier]

Would you mind sharing your sources for troopers being trained to use the pistol with their left hand? In the manuals that I have read say to draw and fire the pistol with the right hand.

Who said they were trained?

 

[Dan Kohli]

Who said they were trained?

I thought you meant trained now that I have reread your post you used "encouraged". But my question still stands: what sources do you have for troopers being "encouraged" to use the pistol in their left hand.

 

[Old Soldier]

I thought you meant trained now that I have reread your post you used "encouraged". But my question still stands: what sources do you have for troopers being "encouraged" to use the pistol in their left hand.

As I said - the left-hand belt holster (officers only) and, if they were trained in the same fashion as the infantry, to use the sword - which is in their right hand - or the carbine. (The old pistols used by cavalry fell out of fashion to be replaced by the more effective and longer-ranged carbine.) Having said that, battle experience always overrides training if the training proves inadequate or there is new technology.

 

[johan_steele]

I've just looked through my copy of the post war Cav manual, I don't have the ACW equivalent, and it is clear the revolver is to be used in the right hand. Existing drawings also show Cavalrymen using the pistol in the right hand. I'm going to have to see a period reference of men being trained, told, encouraged or instructed to use the pistol in their left hand as I can find no period reference to such.

 

[Dan Kohli]

I did check Cooke's and Poinsett's and they pretty much say the same thing. The only sources that I have found for the left hand pistol practice are fellow re-enactors.

 

[Booner]

I think the reason the pistol was carried butt-forward on the right hip is so it wouldn't fall out of the holster when the rider was seated in the saddle.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I found a book about Jesse James at a garage sale. It was a high school level book but it was historical and well resourced. I made a few calls and found out that some drop-out sold the book rather than return it to his school's library.
It gave an example of Jesse's expertise with the pistol. It said he could gallop at full speed between two trees and unload both pistols with direct hits. He had to shoot fast or start shooting farther out. Even though, it didn't say the size or distance of the trees, I find that rather remarkable.

Jesse James never killed anybody who was not either unarmed or helpless. Walking into a bank & murdering a clerk at a range of five feet isn't much of an accomplishment. It was a rational policy. At Northfield MN James' policy of shooting the helpless & running like a rabbit from armed resistance was on display for all to see.

 

[Rhea Cole]

I think the reason the pistol was carried butt-forward on the right hip is so it wouldn't fall out of the holster when the rider was seated in the saddle.

The military holster on the left hip allowed access to the pistol when the holster was covered by a greatcoat or officer's cape.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Cole Younger supposidly shot and killed a union trooper at 70 yards with his .36 caliber colt pistol. He attributed his shooting ability to a lot of practice.
If find that a little doubtful. I would think having target practice, even way out in the countryside, would bring a lot of unwanted attention to what he was doing.
No doubt the Missouri guerrillas had a lot of experience shooting pistols though.

An example of how lethal the .36 caliber pistol was is an Iowa trooper ambushed in Kansas. He was hit, if memory serves, 32 times & left for dead. Days later a farmer exploring the ambush site found him. He survived a buggy ride to a military post. His wounds were dressed & recorded. He lived for decades after the war. He was, however, very ill tempered. Re: 'Iowa Valor'

 

[Rhea Cole]

An example of how effective pistol fire was can be ascertained by a test performances by the British Army. At the end of WWII, there were tests of all manner of arms. Hundreds of serving officers fired pistols on a range. The circular error was about the size of a garage door.

How many references have you read about mounted officers going at it with swords & pistols? My favorite was at Nashville where an exasperated trooper shot the CSA officer with his Spencer just to get it over with.

The records kept by surgeons on both sides indicate that statically you were a very unfortunate individual if you suffered a wound inflicted by either an edged weapon or a pistol.

Signalists were issued swords & pistols. When his group was ordered to escort a wagon train, his comrades were anxious in the extreme. Their ignored pistols were in a sad state. Nobody was quite sure which way the rusted up Colts would fire if the trigger was pulled.

Zelda Cole James is a relative. Grandad said that that bunch were criminals & murderers & he did not want to talk about them. James family home is still on Fatherland Street in Nashville.

 

[Rhea Cole]

An example of how effective pistol fire was can be ascertained by a test performances by the British Army. At the end of WWII, there were tests of all manner of arms. Hundreds of serving officers fired pistols on a range. The circular error was about the size of a garage door.

How many references have you read about mounted officers going at it with swords & pistols? My favorite was at Nashville where an exasperated trooper shot the CSA officer with his Spencer just to get it over with.

The records kept by surgeons on both sides indicate that statically you were a very unfortunate individual if you suffered a wound inflicted by either an edged weapon or a pistol.

Signalists were issued swords & pistols. When his group was ordered to escort a wagon train, his comrades were anxious in the extreme. Their ignored pistols were in a sad state. Nobody was quite sure which way the rusted up Colts would fire if the trigger was pulled.

Zelda Cole James is a relative. Grandad said that that bunch were criminals & murderers & he did not want to talk about them. James family home is still on Fatherland Street in Nashville.

 

[Booner]

Zelda Cole James is a relative. Grandad said that that bunch were criminals & murderers & he did not want to talk about them. James family home is still on Fatherland Street in Nashville.

Small world. You're a relative of Zerelda (Cole) James, Simms, Samuel, (I think I've listed all of her married names)? I'm a distant relative of her husband Robert Salle James and the James boys, as we have a common ancestor from the 1750's in Virgina. When you speak of the James family home in Nashville, I'm assuming your talking about the time in the 1870's or early 1880's when Frank and Jessie lived for a short period of time in Nashville.

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

How many cavalrymen were crack shots when the joined the army? How many cavalry recruits were even fairly familiar with handguns?

Prewar firearm experience was likely to be with hunting rifles or shotguns, not pistols.

Even if you were a crack shot with a pistol, a target range or even a duel is a lot easier than while riding a horse.

Did most cavalrymen had the extra ammunition to practice while on duty?

The infantry didn't. I doubt the cavalry would either.

Their sword, their principal weapon, was in the right hand. It did not need reloading.

What percentage of mounted troops were actually equipped with sabers? Especially outside of the regiments serving with the main field armies?

 

[Josh The Lighthouse Guy]

he recalls a moment while riding in a railcar where the train stopped, and some "Kansas Jayhawker" cavalry jumped out of a rail car while mounted and chased down some bushwackers, reins in the teeth and a pistol in each hand! Wonder if they practiced that?!

I guess you could say that fellow had True Grit!

Jesse James never killed anybody who was not either unarmed or helpless. Walking into a bank & murdering a clerk at a range of five feet isn't much of an accomplishment. It was a rational policy. At Northfield MN James' policy of shooting the helpless & running like a rabbit from armed resistance was on display for all to see.

So the novel and movie should have been titled Robert Ford Gives The Coward Jesse James A Taste Of His Own Medicine?

 

[Rhea Cole]

I guess you could say that fellow had True Grit!



So the novel and movie should have been titled Robert Ford Gives The Coward Jesse James A Taste Of His Own Medicine?

I didn't say it was cowardly… Captain Gorman always said that if it was a fair fight, you didn't do it right. The James Gang was there to get the money & get away. Only an idiot would have ridden into town to shoot it out with the sheriff like a movie bandit. Shooting helpless & unarmed victims is tactically correct. ( ;-)>

 

[Old Soldier]

What percentage of mounted troops were actually equipped with sabers? Especially outside of the regiments serving with the main field armies?

This is one of the conundrums of this war. I would expect, initially, that all militia and regular cavalry were issued with swords. Given the numbers produced, I cannot see why most new cavalrymen were not. Cavalry, however, are not the only 'mounted troops' as this also includes horse artillery (gun teams attached to cavalry brigades) and 'mounted infantry' - which was a relatively new revival of the dragoon whose principle weapon was the rifle, not the carbine or sword. The cavalry were expected to fight from horseback, the others were not - although many did.

Cavalry were used as scouts and, in number, as shock-troops to scatter disorganised bodies of enemy, particularly after a heavy round of volleys or salvoes - to finish off any chance or reorganisation. Outside the main field armies, there was little need for them to be used in this role, so many were treated as 'mounted infantry', no matter what they were armed with, since they were unlikely to be used in the traditional role of cavalry other than patrolling or reconaissance.

 

[Jeff in Ohio]

An example of how effective pistol fire was can be ascertained by a test performances by the British Army. At the end of WWII, there were tests of all manner of arms. Hundreds of serving officers fired pistols on a range. The circular error was about the size of a garage door.

How many references have you read about mounted officers going at it with swords & pistols? My favorite was at Nashville where an exasperated trooper shot the CSA officer with his Spencer just to get it over with.

.....

This could be called the "Indiana Jones" method of dealing with a sword wielding foe.

 

[johan_steele]

This is one of the conundrums of this war. I would expect, initially, that all militia and regular cavalry were issued with swords. Given the numbers produced, I cannot see why most new cavalrymen were not. Cavalry, however, are not the only 'mounted troops' as this also includes horse artillery (gun teams attached to cavalry brigades) and 'mounted infantry' - which was a relatively new revival of the dragoon whose principle weapon was the rifle, not the carbine or sword. The cavalry were expected to fight from horseback, the others were not - although many did.

Cavalry were used as scouts and, in number, as shock-troops to scatter disorganised bodies of enemy, particularly after a heavy round of volleys or salvoes - to finish off any chance or reorganisation. Outside the main field armies, there was little need for them to be used in this role, so many were treated as 'mounted infantry', no matter what they were armed with, since they were unlikely to be used in the traditional role of cavalry other than patrolling or reconaissance.

The reality of the American Civil War was quite different than the fighting on the continent. From the terrain, to the preparation of armies America was different.

As a well known example if a Cavalry Regiment had the arms to equip only a single Troop of Cavalry a competent Colonel could make three armed Troops. The proscribed arms were a sabre, pistol and carbine. All that Colonel had to do was arm one Troop with sabres, another with pistols and the third with carbines. This kind of thing was common in the western theatre especially. Officers such as Minty proved they could make do with what they had.

 

[Rhea Cole]

Small world. You're a relative of Zerelda (Cole) James, Simms, Samuel, (I think I've listed all of her married names)? I'm a distant relative of her husband Robert Salle James and the James boys, as we have a common ancestor from the 1750's in Virgina. When you speak of the James family home in Nashville, I'm assuming your talking about the time in the 1870's or early 1880's when Frank and Jessie lived for a short period of time in Nashville.

The family lived in a small red house that somehow survived both a massive fire & urban renewal. They didn't commit crimes on Tennessee. The store, which was owned by a family member, where they met to plan the foray to Franklin KY, etc. still exists. Poor Zelda, she certainly had a time of it… small world, no?

 

[Rhea Cole]

The reality of the American Civil War was quite different than the fighting on the continent. From the terrain, to the preparation of armies America was different.

As a well known example if a Cavalry Regiment had the arms to equip only a single Troop of Cavalry a competent Colonel could make three armed Troops. The proscribed arms were a sabre, pistol and carbine. All that Colonel had to do was arm one Troop with sabres, another with pistols and the third with carbines. This kind of thing was common in the western theatre especially. Officers such as Minty proved they could make do with what they had.

During the advance to Stones River some of Rosecrans' cavalry had no weapons of any kind. As you rightly point out, Minty was the real deal. The post office at Rover where Minty concentrated before the famous saber charge still exits. The crossroad at Rover hasn't changed. If some of the houses could talk…

Rosecrans' decision to put a crusty old school martinet like Stanley in command of the Army of the Cumberland's cavalry was a brilliant one. In six months he drilled a hapless, unarmed flock of sheep into hard riding troopers. During Mitney's saber charge the unit on his left carried Spencers.

The trope about Rosecrans doing nothing between Jan & JN 1863 could hardly be more wrong. Wheeler's rain soaked troopers couldn't fire a shot when attacked by Minty's men armed with breech loading carbines & Spencers… not to mention sabers. You can drive through the narrow gap on the hills where Wheeler's men ran for their lives today.