Cornpone and Molasses
First Sergeant
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2015
- Location
- NJ
The latter sounds like it would be darn near impossible but as they say practice and drill until you can do it without even thinking about what you're doing!
-
Welcome to CivilWarTalk, a forum about the American Civil War! - Join today! It's fast, simple, and FREE!
Handguns Pistol training for cavalrymen?
- Thread starter major bill
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2018
- Location
- South Texas
I'm sure there are many who want to say something but are waiting for someone else to reply. I agree with most of the Hickock/Tutt thing except it didn't happen in Texas.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2018
- Location
- South Texas
I couldn't cap or recap a pistol if the horse was standing still, with gauntlets I mean.
Elmer Keith knew some Civil War Cavalryman in his day. He said they employed a shooting technique on a moving horse where they made a quick chopping motion with the pistol as they fired. They claimed they could get more reliable hits this way at a gallop. For the most part, these men must have learned pistol craft the hard way. But they also must have had a few lulls between battles where they could practice with pistol and rifle. Southerners were no strangers to horses and firearms/hunting. The use of a revolver on horseback was probably new to most. Having someone shooting at you at the same time would have made the learning curve more steep.
Thanks for posting an actual source.
To see how mounted training morphed at the end of the age of horse mounted Cavalry @ eighty years later,
see Chapter 4 p.67 of the 1940 edition M1911A1 Field Manual. Two Tables were to be fired, each with two runs of 14 shots apiece (so 2 x 2 x 14 = 56 rounds expended per trooper).
29thWisCoG
Corporal
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2021
I have a diary entry from a soldier who was sent to Memphis as part of a detachment from the 13th Corps to help Gn Lawson start the invasion of Mobile in 1864... he recalls a moment while riding in a railcar where the train stopped, and some "Kansas Jayhawker" cavalry jumped out of a rail car while mounted and chased down some bushwackers, reins in the teeth and a pistol in each hand! Wonder if they practiced that?!
They must have been coached by the Regimental Dentist.
turner ashby kidd
Corporal
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2011
My pleasure.
Forum Host- Joined
- May 4, 2015
- Location
- Boonville, MO.
Oh no, the shooting took place in the town square in Springfield, Missouri, not Texas.
And I don't doubt that Wild Bill, or for that matter, Cole Younger, could hit and kill someone at that distance.
What I do have my doubts about is that guerrillas practiced shooting their pistols often. If a Union patrol heard the sound of gunfire, I would think they would investigate the source of the shooting.
nc native
Sergeant Major
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2011
- Location
- NC Piedmont
I stand corrected. You do bring up a good point about guerrillas probably not being able to practice their marksmanship as much as they would want to.
EJ Zander
Sergeant Major
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2011
- Location
- Gettysburg, PA
Is there ay mention of the stirrup length in the training manuals? The stirrups would provide a shooting platform. Mongol horse archers were said to ride short. Riding/ shooting on the move without stirrups would involve timing shots to match the horses gait ie the rhythm of horses stride at which time the platform was most stable.
thomas aagaard
Captain
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2013
- Location
- Denmark
With infantry it was in no way unusual that a recruit fired his first live round when he first got into combat.
I have not studied the issue with cavalry, but when the two sided where not able to do any sort of organized marksmanship training for the infantry, I seriously doubt that they did so for the cavalry...
I was wondering if anybody has seen a primary source discussing pistol practise like that described in Cooke's manual actually being done in a cavalry unit during the Civil War? I don't remember ever having seen any myself but I don't have access to a whole lot of sources either.
And in order to become proficient at it, wouldn't the practise have to have been done pretty frequently?
I don't know about Western gun fighters and guerillas, and its just an opinion but I have a feeling there was very little pistol practise in civil war cavalry regiments as there apparently wasn't much in the way of firearms practise in the infantry as @thomas aagaard indicated above.
It would seem to me that this whole idea of civil war cavalry troopers being crack shots with pistols on moving horses as mostly exaggerated stories. Now firing at close range into a dense mass of enemy troopers in a melee situation would be a whole other ball game. No crack shot skills beyond familiarity with the gun required there I wouldn't think.
John
And in order to become proficient at it, wouldn't the practise have to have been done pretty frequently?
I don't know about Western gun fighters and guerillas, and its just an opinion but I have a feeling there was very little pistol practise in civil war cavalry regiments as there apparently wasn't much in the way of firearms practise in the infantry as @thomas aagaard indicated above.
It would seem to me that this whole idea of civil war cavalry troopers being crack shots with pistols on moving horses as mostly exaggerated stories. Now firing at close range into a dense mass of enemy troopers in a melee situation would be a whole other ball game. No crack shot skills beyond familiarity with the gun required there I wouldn't think.
John
Early 80s at SOT one of the Instructors was one of the Son Tay Raiders. Taught me a lot. He could hit a small target at 200 yards with the .45 Colt 1911. I was right next to him and saw it. Amazing! Don't ask me if he could do it from a Horse
Silly its not. Always train one handed especially for close quarters. Gun fights are over very quickly. You might be doing something else with your support hand like pushing off something, deflecting a blow, pushing an innocent out of the way, etc, etc, etc. Close Quarter gun fights are over in seconds so don't waste a second or half second bring up your support hand and getting a good grip. For all you young guys (or girls) out there or here please train one handed close quarters since the majority of gun fights are close quarters. Make it home at the end of every day!
CowCavalry
Sergeant Major
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2017
Not to mention that one arm could be disabled already if you are in a firefight.
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2018
- Location
- South Texas
By all means practice with the "weak" as well. It may be all you have someday.
2nd Alabama Cavalry
Sergeant
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2019
During the "Camp of Instruction" and "School of the Troop", most who joined in 1861-1862 were trained in how to shoot mounted and dismounted regarding cavalry troopers. Included in this training was the firing of pistols, rifles and shotguns as well as the use of the sword. The course which was ran was the same as used in "Ring Tournament`s;" which was also known as, 'Cutting heads and taking off rings'.
The training was performed by both U.S and C.S. cavalries in their respective "Camps of Instruction," to demonstrate skill and ability with the above-mentioned weapons, as well as show exceptional horsemanship which is found in the U.S. Cavalry Journal during the American Civil War.
Regarding the saber, the cavalry trooper`s running the course would mount their horses, equipped with a cavalry saddle, bridle and housings. The course to be run was 125 yards from the first to the last post. The maximum time allowed was 11 seconds. The first post, six and one-half feet in height, was to the right of the track and was surmounted by a leather head which was placed on a peg of white pine three inches in length and one-half inch in thickness. This post was to be passed with the "right cut", and the peculiarity of the system rested in the fact that nothing counted except for a clean horizontal sweep which should sever the peg itself - a whack on the leather head was as good as a miss. Twenty-five yards from the first post was the second, which was high enough to support a horizontal arm over the track from which arm there depended a hook wire on which hung a three-inch ring to be taken at "quarte point". The third post, twenty-five yards farther on, on the left of the track, supported head and peg like the first and was to be taken at "left cut". The fourth, another ring post, twenty-five yards farther on the right of the track, the ring to be taken at "tierce point" and finally twenty-five yards still farther and making the total of 125 yards of the course, the low head post on the right, the head to be taken at "right cut against Infantry".
In order to be able to make these various cuts and thrusts inside the allotted eleven seconds the cavalry trooper would be compelled to keep his sword arm in pretty constant motion. At the sound of the bugle the horseman had to move out at a walk with "Saber at a carry"; take the gallop on reaching track; assume the position of "guard", then as he approached the first post take the first position of "right cut", make a sweeping horizontal cut, returning by the "half Moulinet" over the head to the position of "guard"; then the first motion of "quarte point" when nearing the ring, make the thrust, returning to the position of "guard" after discharging the ring. Before reaching the second head post he had to take the first position of "left cut", make a sweeping horizontal cut to the left, returning to the "guard" over the head by the "half Moulinet" as before, then the first motion of "tierce point", then the full thrust to the front and discharge the ring by the upper swing of the saber, then resume the "guard"; then the first motion of "right cut" against infantry, and the cut at the head, again the position of "guard" and finally "carry saber" after he cleared the track.
The four basic horse gaits which had to be learned during the "Camp of Instruction" and later mastered during the "School of the Troop" were: the "walk", "trot", "canter" and "gallop". All horses move naturally with these four basic gaits: the four-beat "walk", which averages 4 miles per hour; the two-beat "trot", which averages 8 to 12 miles per hour; the leaping gaits known as the "canter", being a three-beat gait that is 12 to 15 miles per hour; and the "gallop", a four-beat movement, which averages 25 to 30 miles per hour. Sometimes they would add leather heads laying on the ground to replicate fallen infantrymen where they would have to lean down from the saddle and take the head with their sabers at a fast gallop to ensure the kill. They called this "running at the heads (ball) upon the ground".
They ran the same course shooting into the leather heads with pistols, rifles and shotguns from a full gallop, in addition to leaping over rails and ditches. They would be required to shoot in all directions at a full run with accuracy, directly in front, to the sides and behind them as they rode from a mounted position. Shooting at heads on posts to the front and behind the rider on both sides. The cavalry trooper learned to be proficient with firearms on horseback from a stand, a walk, a trot, a slow gallop, a fast gallop, a half charge and a full charge with accuracy shooting to the left and right in front and in back in every direction. As well as shooting his weapon while leaping a bar (downed tree) and leaping a ditch. The cavalry trooper learned proficiency with the rifle and shotgun from a dismounted position in addition to his pistols, and saber from that position in like manner.
Those who enlisted and joined a cavalry outfit in the field, later in the war, were not able to attend a "Camp of Instruction" or a "School of troop" and had to learn those very important lessons as they served and fought and by listening to the veterans.
The training was performed by both U.S and C.S. cavalries in their respective "Camps of Instruction," to demonstrate skill and ability with the above-mentioned weapons, as well as show exceptional horsemanship which is found in the U.S. Cavalry Journal during the American Civil War.
Regarding the saber, the cavalry trooper`s running the course would mount their horses, equipped with a cavalry saddle, bridle and housings. The course to be run was 125 yards from the first to the last post. The maximum time allowed was 11 seconds. The first post, six and one-half feet in height, was to the right of the track and was surmounted by a leather head which was placed on a peg of white pine three inches in length and one-half inch in thickness. This post was to be passed with the "right cut", and the peculiarity of the system rested in the fact that nothing counted except for a clean horizontal sweep which should sever the peg itself - a whack on the leather head was as good as a miss. Twenty-five yards from the first post was the second, which was high enough to support a horizontal arm over the track from which arm there depended a hook wire on which hung a three-inch ring to be taken at "quarte point". The third post, twenty-five yards farther on, on the left of the track, supported head and peg like the first and was to be taken at "left cut". The fourth, another ring post, twenty-five yards farther on the right of the track, the ring to be taken at "tierce point" and finally twenty-five yards still farther and making the total of 125 yards of the course, the low head post on the right, the head to be taken at "right cut against Infantry".
In order to be able to make these various cuts and thrusts inside the allotted eleven seconds the cavalry trooper would be compelled to keep his sword arm in pretty constant motion. At the sound of the bugle the horseman had to move out at a walk with "Saber at a carry"; take the gallop on reaching track; assume the position of "guard", then as he approached the first post take the first position of "right cut", make a sweeping horizontal cut, returning by the "half Moulinet" over the head to the position of "guard"; then the first motion of "quarte point" when nearing the ring, make the thrust, returning to the position of "guard" after discharging the ring. Before reaching the second head post he had to take the first position of "left cut", make a sweeping horizontal cut to the left, returning to the "guard" over the head by the "half Moulinet" as before, then the first motion of "tierce point", then the full thrust to the front and discharge the ring by the upper swing of the saber, then resume the "guard"; then the first motion of "right cut" against infantry, and the cut at the head, again the position of "guard" and finally "carry saber" after he cleared the track.
The four basic horse gaits which had to be learned during the "Camp of Instruction" and later mastered during the "School of the Troop" were: the "walk", "trot", "canter" and "gallop". All horses move naturally with these four basic gaits: the four-beat "walk", which averages 4 miles per hour; the two-beat "trot", which averages 8 to 12 miles per hour; the leaping gaits known as the "canter", being a three-beat gait that is 12 to 15 miles per hour; and the "gallop", a four-beat movement, which averages 25 to 30 miles per hour. Sometimes they would add leather heads laying on the ground to replicate fallen infantrymen where they would have to lean down from the saddle and take the head with their sabers at a fast gallop to ensure the kill. They called this "running at the heads (ball) upon the ground".
They ran the same course shooting into the leather heads with pistols, rifles and shotguns from a full gallop, in addition to leaping over rails and ditches. They would be required to shoot in all directions at a full run with accuracy, directly in front, to the sides and behind them as they rode from a mounted position. Shooting at heads on posts to the front and behind the rider on both sides. The cavalry trooper learned to be proficient with firearms on horseback from a stand, a walk, a trot, a slow gallop, a fast gallop, a half charge and a full charge with accuracy shooting to the left and right in front and in back in every direction. As well as shooting his weapon while leaping a bar (downed tree) and leaping a ditch. The cavalry trooper learned proficiency with the rifle and shotgun from a dismounted position in addition to his pistols, and saber from that position in like manner.
Those who enlisted and joined a cavalry outfit in the field, later in the war, were not able to attend a "Camp of Instruction" or a "School of troop" and had to learn those very important lessons as they served and fought and by listening to the veterans.
Similar threads
Similar threads
- Learn About Us
- ►About CivilWarTalk
- ►Contact the Webmaster
- ►Meet the Staff
- ►Link to CivilWarTalk
- Join Our Community
- ►Register
- ►Browse Forums
- ►View Today's Discussions
- ►Search the Forum
- Get Help
- ►FAQ
- ►Student Guide
- ►Forum Rules & Etiquette
- ►Copyright / DMCA
Bringing the