Grant Grant v Lee

It's possible that some of Ord's forces heard something and some did not. Thousands of men do not stand on the same square foot of ground. But the men who really needed to hear the fighting, Grant and Ord, did not hear it.
And Ross told Ord about the rising smoke, which apparently wasn't enough for Ord to go ahead. Either the smoke means there's a battle or the smoke means the destruction of stores, but either way it would be good reason for Ord (or Grant) to at least send men closer to check - that is, if they were being aggressive. An ambiguous report deserves investigation (and it's not like Price didn't know Ord was nearby).

More to the point, though, an accoustic shadow happens when there's wind blowing, and there reportedly was not; Cozzens however suggests that the wind was blocked by the terrain, but the smoke was certainly seen.

The worst-case scenario if Ord pushes forwards and brings on an engagement, and Rosecrans has not yet arrived, is that the Confederates are merely destroying stores (thus the smoke) and are not actively engaged - but if they're destroying stores they're planning to leave anyway, and engaging their rearguard helps to slow them down or results in casualties otherwise.

And we would not even be talking about an acoustic shadow if Rosecrans had not bungled the original plan by failing to keep the timetable, and failing to cover both escape roads.
I seem to recall reading a reference that Grant (initially) concurred with Rosecrans' decision and that he didn't have the men to cover both escape roads given the terrain. Certainly Cozzens says that that was the cause of Rosecrans' change of plans (the terrain, meaning that the roads he was to block were not mutually supporting) and that Rosecrans was expecting Ord to go in first and thus prevent Price from fighting to secure his route of departure with all his strength.

The "Grant was drunk" allegation was nonsense.
Is there, in fact, evidence against it? We know that at least one person who was there (mea culpa, a Captain not a Major) claimed Grant was drunk; what makes it nonsense?
 
The "Grant was drunk" allegation was nonsense.

An unfortunately common theme in some posting patterns here - "the winner was lucky\unimportant\didn't deserve it, and the loser was a misunderstood genius\other people's fault\actually the winner."

It gets as tiring as it is stupid.

On to other, better threads.
 
An unfortunately common theme in some posting patterns here - "the winner was lucky\unimportant\didn't deserve it, and the loser was a misunderstood genius\other people's fault\actually the winner."
The line you quoted doesn't seem to bear on that, though, unless that is you're ascribing to Grant the position of "winner" at Iuka?
 
So did anyone actually check the depth before the 28th or are you assuming the level was too high several days before?
And why aren't some brigades circulating back down the Cumberland and up the Tennessee, to arrive sooner? The explanation probably lies in Halleck not caring whether Grant is able to advance and Buell's general reluctance to co-operate with anyone else.
 
And Ross told Ord about the rising smoke, which apparently wasn't enough for Ord to go ahead. Either the smoke means there's a battle or the smoke means the destruction of stores, but either way it would be good reason for Ord (or Grant) to at least send men closer to check - that is, if they were being aggressive. An ambiguous report deserves investigation (and it's not like Price didn't know Ord was nearby).

More to the point, though, an accoustic shadow happens when there's wind blowing, and there reportedly was not; Cozzens however suggests that the wind was blocked by the terrain, but the smoke was certainly seen.

The worst-case scenario if Ord pushes forwards and brings on an engagement, and Rosecrans has not yet arrived, is that the Confederates are merely destroying stores (thus the smoke) and are not actively engaged - but if they're destroying stores they're planning to leave anyway, and engaging their rearguard helps to slow them down or results in casualties otherwise.


I seem to recall reading a reference that Grant (initially) concurred with Rosecrans' decision and that he didn't have the men to cover both escape roads given the terrain. Certainly Cozzens says that that was the cause of Rosecrans' change of plans (the terrain, meaning that the roads he was to block were not mutually supporting) and that Rosecrans was expecting Ord to go in first and thus prevent Price from fighting to secure his route of departure with all his strength.
It's important to remember that the plan came from Rosecrans. He represented himself as knowledgeable of the area. Grant's biggest mistake was agreeing to his plan.

Grant and Ord were in position at the correct time, Rosecrans was not.

For a period after the battle, Grant was not very critical of the bungled operation. Perhaps because he still had confidence in Rosecrans. But as time went on, and other events soured Grant on Rosecrans, his view on this battle became a little less rosy, no pun intended.
 
It's the typical whisper campaign against Grant, both then and now.

But we have the name of at least one of the people who said Grant was drunk at Iuka, Captain William Stewart of the 11th Missouri (initially in a letter to his parents).

We know (from Grant) that he did have a drinking problem at some times in his life, and while his aide (Rawlins) and wife (Julia Grant) acted to protect him from it neither of them was with him at Iuka.
 
But we have the name of at least one of the people who said Grant was drunk at Iuka, Captain William Stewart of the 11th Missouri (initially in a letter to his parents).

We know (from Grant) that he did have a drinking problem at some times in his life, and while his aide (Rawlins) and wife (Julia Grant) acted to protect him from it neither of them was with him at Iuka.
Yes, Captain Stewart. With the 11th Missouri. At Iuka. In Rosecrans' column.

See a problem there?
 
I think it's very hard to compare how both of them fared against political influence.

Although I am not too familiar with Grant's political connections I somehow remember him being to a certain degree influenced as soon as he was transferred to the East. Wasn't there a letter from Pinkerton to McClellan where it said that Grant´s operations were closely supervised by the government? I even read that the Overland Campaign was a brainchild of the politicians and that an original plan of Grant was overruled.
(but I have to admit that it's only hearsay...)

On the other hand Lee's status of being nearly "untouchable" (at least since the fall of 1862) was not the product of his clever political acting - as he actually refrained from string-pulling most of the times. And in those rare moments where he tried to get the confederate congress to change it's attitudes he definitely wasn't successful.

Maybe both generals were (just like most of their colleagues) not that powerful especially in politics?
(But again...I just don't know enough about the quality of Grant's connections...).
Lee could have exerted more influence than he did (eg regarding the removing of Johnston) - but that was not according to his character (I think).
Grant appears to have left most (if not all) the politicking to Lincoln. I think Grant's biggest challenge was working with politically connected subordinates who were incompetent military commanders but could reap votes from their home districts to simply dismiss them from service. These "political generals" were a constant problem for not only Grant but Lee as well.
 
That's at Falling Waters? I make the timeline there:

July 6-7 - Stuart's cavalry reaches Falling Waters, where the pontoon bridge that was there previously had been destroyed by a cavalry raid
July 8 - the Confederate army arrives there
July 11 - Lee fortifies
July 13 - the river falls enough to allow troops to cross at Williamsport, and also there's a bridge built at Falling Waters by Confederate engineers which becomes available at this time

So there are at least three points to make here.

1) Lee didn't start crossing the river by ford (at Williamsport) until the river fell enough to do so.
2) Unless I am misunderstanding, we do not have confirmation that work on the bridge only began on July 13; if Lee began work as soon as his infantry arrived then it would have taken nearly a week.
3) Lee had engineers with him - at least a few - while Buell didn't.

None of these make the comparison useless, but they do mean it's not Lee just bridging a flooded river and crossing his whole force in a single night over one crossing.
I agree, As usual, always good reasons why Union generals could not do what Lee could do as a matter of course.
 
I agree, As usual, always good reasons why Union generals could not do what Lee could do as a matter of course.
It's not something Lee did as a matter of course. It's something he considered to be a matter of divine intervention:


"Had the river not unexpectedly risen, all would have been well with us; but God, in His all-wise providence, willed otherwise, and our communications have been interrupted and almost cut off. The waters have subsided to about four feet, and, if they continue, by tomorrow, I hope, our communications will be open. I trust that a merciful God, our only hope and refuge, will not desert us in this hour of need, and will deliver us by His almighty hand, that the whole world may recognise His power and all hearts be lifted up in adoration and praise of His unbounded loving-kindness. We must, however, submit to His almighty will, whatever that may be. May God guide and protect us all is my constant prayer."
 
I'm not so sure you can actually say that - Grant's next battle is the one where the column he's with doesn't do any of the fighting, while the column Rosecrans is with does all of it. That doesn't mean Grant's aggressiveness had suffered, necessarily, but it's not the much-less-ambiguous proof that a vigorous movement to bring the column he's with into the fighting would have been.
My basic point is, Grant did not let difficulties or near misses to deter him from advancing South. Plans often go astray, it is what one does when they do. Grant almost always advanced.
 
My basic point is, Grant did not let difficulties or near misses to deter him from advancing South. Plans often go astray, it is what one does when they do. Grant almost always advanced.
But Grant still has to deal with the fundamental limitations that are in place. At Vicksburg for example he retreats when his supply base is hit, then spends several months trying one plan after another before eventually hitting on one that works to get his forces over the eastern side of the Mississippi.
 
But Grant still has to deal with the fundamental limitations that are in place. At Vicksburg for example he retreats when his supply base is hit, then spends several months trying one plan after another before eventually hitting on one that works to get his forces over the eastern side of the Mississippi.
Correct, even in adversity, Grant is trying only to get at his opponent, as soon as possible, not avoid him. Terrain or politics may be against him, but they do not distract him.
 
Correct, even in adversity, Grant is trying only to get at his opponent, as soon as possible, not avoid him. Terrain or politics may be against him, but they do not distract him.
And "as soon as possible" is within the bounds of the conditions which actually prevail. Grant doesn't launch over the Rapidan for the Overland until May because that is when everything was lined up to make it possible, just as one example.

However, in a lot of cases there is a continuum going on. Someone can launch on their campaign and try and attack the enemy at the earliest possible moment by rushing, but it is often the case that a delay to make sure things are actually in order before attacking means that the actual offensive movement is more likely to succeed.


In the example of Buell getting troops over the Duck, there are basically three possibilities here.

1) The river could have been bridged faster.
2) The river was fordable before the date at which it was actually crossed.
3) Neither of these applies.

It is quite possible that an "utmost effort" could have bridged the river faster, or could have allowed for troops to ford the Duck beforehand; even if neither is the case then it's obviously possible to swim. But we have to go on from there to the question of whether or not doing these faster movements would be (A) worth the trouble and (B) actually result in a better outcome.

The distinction at play for (A) is that, for example, having everyone in the entire army wear themselves out building bridging equipment sixteen hours a day, or hiring in civilian engineers, might get the bridge built faster but would cost more in money and/or unit cohesion. Similarly asking men who aren't experienced swimmers to swim across the flooded Duck river en masse would get the infantry across, but would probably result in at least a few drownings.
Buell's been ordered to concentrate on Grant, but as far as he's aware Grant will have had the opportunity to fortify his position, and it's not always the case that you must move as fast as humanly possible - it's no good half-killing your men on a forced march and suffering significant straggling losses to get somewhere in three days when there's no need for you to be there before day six.

The distinction at play for (B) is related. Let's say that the day after reaching the Duck river with McCook's division Buell has them swim the river en masse, and has them march for Savannah.
The resultant formation is moving days earlier, yes. But it's also moving without wagons or artillery (as they're unable to cross the still-flooded river) and so the only supplies it has are the ones which the men can carry with them (usually reckoned at about three days' cooked rations, assuming they survived the swim, and their weapons plus some possibly-wet cartridges). The force has to conduct a move of about 85 miles with the food to cover perhaps thirty under normal march distances - perhaps more like fifty if it's all forced marches without the wagons - but they simply don't have to food to make it, and if they reach Savannah it's without artillery. Meanwhile the bridge is going unbuilt because the men who would have been working on it are instead somewhere around Summertown, and so the next division has the same basic problem to solve.



I think there is not sufficient preponderance of evidence to conclude that Buell was doing anything other than making a good-faith effort to march troops to Grant as soon as feasible. I think there is good reason to conclude that his judgement was wrong about the best way to do that, in that sending troops by river probably would have got at least some of them to Grant sooner, but I also think that we don't have sufficient information to know whether the end result would have been to have more troops able to participate in Shiloh by the end. (As this would require sending four divisions in time, which is a significant lift and there may not have been enough shipping for the round-trips required to carry the lot).

Buell's principal error of judgement would thus be his determination of how long repairing the bridge over the Duck at Columbia would take. If it had taken two or three days, everything would have been fine; I suspect however that for a number of reasons Buell's understanding of how long bridging would take was based on "wrong knowledge" - the Mexican-American War didn't exactly see many ARKstorm events.
 
On March 10, Buell messaged Halleck that his "advance division" was at Columbia.

Read the correspondence section of OR vol 10. Halleck was practically begging Buell to send troops in the first half of March. Halleck was willing to send transports and take them down the river. Buell kept making stalling and making excuses, wanting to set up a meeting between himself and Halleck. Halleck complained to McClellan on March 10 about Buell's "hesitation" in reinforcing him.

If Buell had acted when Halleck asked him for reinforcements, that would have been around March 8th. Buell could have reinforced Grant weeks before he did, if he had taken Hallecks offer of river transports.
Why weren't some regiments sent down the Cumberland and up the Tennessee? The rest of Buell's record suggests he knew how to create excuses not to fight.
 
Why weren't some regiments sent down the Cumberland and up the Tennessee? The rest of Buell's record suggests he knew how to create excuses not to fight.
I'd assume on the grounds that Buell honestly believed that this way was quicker (for the whole force) and safer (for that part moving overland).

What sort of time would it take to send a division by river? It looks like 192 miles of Cumberland River from Nashville to the mouth, a comparatively minor movement to the Ohio, then another 207 miles from Paducah to Pickwick Dam (near Shiloh) - call it 400 miles one way.

I estimate that if you have ships that could move at 5 knots (average speed - obviously going downriver is faster and upriver slower) it'd take a bit less than six days for a round trip. So an interesting project would be to look at how long the movement from Fort Henry to Shiloh took, as that's about 1/3 the distance.
 
I'd been wondering about the purported accoustic shadow at Iuka, as it seemed like quite a short distance (with no wind, and wind is necessary for an accoustic shadow) and they could definitely see smoke (which even if they didn't realize it was from a battle should indicate the Confederates burning their stores and preparing to evacuate, in which case an attack would be a good idea anyway just to try and pin them - notwithstanding how a wind would have helped disperse the smoke). I also know at least one field grade officer (a Major) said that Grant was drunk, and while that could just be supposition on his part he's high enough ranking he could conceivably have known.
Acoustical shadow at Iuka is a myth. People in Grant's side of the attacking force did hear the sound of battle and I can show that. The incapacity of Grant because of alcohol can't be proven. However there were reports he was drunk or at the very least unconcerned during the battle. William Stewart of the 11th Missouri wrote to his parents that he'd heard Grant was drunk and believed it. He also wrote a report that cited "hellish whiskey" as a factor in Grant's non participation in the battle that was printed in the Cincinnati Commercial.
That Grant postponed his attack prior to the battle is indisputable.
 

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