J. Johnston Thoughts on Joseph E. Johnston

[Henry Hunt]

To be fair to Lee Grant had more men and better logistics.Of course that is not a criticism of Grant since it's not Grant's job to give an opponent a fair fight.
Not sure how Lee could of done better in the Overland Campaign based on Lee's limited manpower and logistical resources.
Ironically Grant wrote in the ORs a proposal to invade Virginia via the back door of New Berne, North Carolina. It was President Lincoln's idea to mount the Overland Campaign in order to keep the AoP in front of Washington DC.
I agree Grant was a good general.
Leftyhunter

Not to go off-topic but I've heard of this North Carolina plan before and always thought it was a good move. I imagine the operation would have taken much less casualties then the Overland Campaign and Grant would not be smeared as a "butcher." As I understand it, Grant would have left a significant force on the Rapidan while landing in Carolinas. This would have pinned Lee between the two, he would have to abandon the Rapidan to stop Grant or attack across the river against whoever Grant left behind. Its also interesting that even though Grant did the Overland Campaign, as Lincoln wished, Washington still got attacked by Jubal Early, what was the point? Grant could have just left a corps in Washington and sailed for NC....

 

[Irishtom29]

Not sure Johnston could of stopped Sherman. I don't know Sherman's manpower superiority ratio but if it was over two to one that would make defending Georgia very difficult.
Leftyhunter

Indeed. But doing the unlikely or impossible is what separates the great from the good.

 

[Irishtom29]

But the same can be said about Lee; he delayed Grant during the Overland and Petersburg campaigns, but was never able to stop him.

That's one reason he isn't called Lee the Great. Had he destroyed Grant he probably would be.

 

[John Fenton]

Not sure I follow. By late summer of 1864 wasn't Lee's strategy just to entrench and pray for a miracle? Not that Lee had any choice in the matter.
Leftyhunter

yes and very similar to johnston but he also would not give up petersburg and richmond. ultimately he did give them up but had he followed johnston's strategy he could have lived to fight another day which he tried to do. if the fall of places like vicksburg and richmond meant the end of the confederacy why fight beyond new orleans , ft henry and donelson, nashville , and memphis ?

To be fair to Lee Grant had more men and better logistics.

not always in the west. plus having longer lines of communication Grant and Sherman developed a tactic of supplying the army off of the countryside thereby having no logistical support.

Not sure how Lee could of done better in the Overland Campaign based on Lee's limited manpower and logistical resources.

why were they so limited ? because lee had them chewed up. at war's end johnston surrendered 90,000 troops although many were not under his direct control.

I don't know Sherman's manpower superiority ratio but if it was over two to one that would make defending Georgia very difficult.

hood actually had a numerical superiority at atlanta and roughly even numbers at peachtree creek. why ?

a comment about the failure of johnston to defend snake creek gap.
i was not the mistake it is made out to be.
first johnston could not stay at rocky face ridge forever. when sherman withdrew so johnston had to also or be encircled . also mcpherson could have gotten in his rear farther south just as Polk did in joining Johnston from alabama or one of the union armies could have flanked the confederates to the east. also let us not forget the examples of missionary ridge and lookout mountain. they did not stop the union armies. as demonstrated at lookout mt. "there ain't no mountain high enough ". these battles doomed atlanta not snake creek gap.
if there was a way to achieve independence it was johnston's way and it was a close thing. without the battles of antietam , gettysburg, and the loss of an army at vicksburg, which in it's self might have prevented the georgia campaign, the south would have been in a much better position in 1864 for foreign recognition or declining northern popular support for lincoln and nomination of a peace candidate.

 

[John Fenton]

That's one reason he isn't called Lee the Great. Had he destroyed Grant he probably would be.

you don't live in the south , do you.

 

[Irishtom29]

you don't live in the south , do you.

Yes, I do live in the South.

 

[Irishtom29]

plus having longer lines of communication Grant and Sherman developed a tactic of supplying the army off of the countryside thereby having no logistical support.

They didn't make a habit of that and usually had lines of communication and supply. No small part of their talent was in setting up and maintaining such lines.

 

[John Fenton]

Yes, I do live in the South.

well round here they call him the greatest general america ever produced.

 

[John Fenton]

They didn't make a habit of that and usually had lines of communication and supply. No small part of their talent was in setting up and maintaining such lines.

well grant did it at a critical time in mississippi and sherman did it ever since atlanta.

sorry if i seem rude, don't mean to be.

 

[lurid]

The Union comprehensive strategy to win the CW was impenetrable and not remotely breached.

Exhibit A: the Union had the entire Confederate perimeter surrounded by land and water.

Exhibit B: The Union worked internally and took swaths of Confederate territory and gradually shrank the Confederate perimeters.

Exhibit C: The Union Made a new demarcation line at Vicksburg, cutting off the west from east in Confederacy territory.

Exhibit D: The Union made a new demarcation line in Tennessee.

Exhibit E: Sherman makes a new demarcation line around Georgia and South Carolina.

Exhibit F: Grant conquers Lee in Virginia


The Confederacy was utterly smothered. Lee is lucky Grant was in charge instead of Sheridan because Sheridan wanted to get ugly on Lee.

 

[Irishtom29]

well round here they call him the greatest general america ever produced.

As Virginian commanders go I rate Washington and Scott higher. And of course both rate much higher than Lee as an American commander; American meant in the political term, being a citizen of or one loyal to the United States.

And then there's Thomas; pretty good.

 

[John Fenton]

As Virginian commanders go I rate Washington and Scott higher. And of course both rate much higher than Lee as an American commander; American meant in the political term, being a citizen of or one loyal to the United States.

And then there's Thomas; pretty good.

i didn't mean to imply that I think Lee was great.
as for Washington, Johnston behaved much more like him than like Lee.

 

[Henry Hunt]

well round here they call him the greatest general america ever produced.

Sure your not confusing him with the great McClellan. "An officer in the Second Massachusetts wrote that McClellan was 'the greatest general the country ever produced.' " [1]

[1] John C. Waugh, Lincoln and McClellan (New York: Palgrave MacMillan, 2010), 137.

 

[Dead Parrott]

But the same can be said about Lee; he delayed Grant during the Overland and Petersburg campaigns, but was never able to stop him.

See this is when I love this site the most. Discussion of how to rate Johnston evolves into a discussion of what abilities (and accomplishments) define a general's deserved rating, which then compares other generals by those same (or similar) standards.

I enjoy this type of exchange - especially when practiced as an informed conversation on mutual interests.

- K.

 

[lurid]

The blockade was a factor for any strategy. Yet the south withheld cotton in an embargo. Some cotton was still getting out through Mexico and the confederacy was getting credit/selling cotton still in place in the south. They did not have much longer to wait and would have been much stronger if they had not spent their military resources as if they could match northern production and imports.

It didn't matter the south withheld cotton because the Brits had a bumper crop stashed because they anticipated the CW. How much cotton was getting through Mexico? What exactly were the Confederates waiting for that you claim they didn't have much longer to wait?

No way is your post economically accurate. The blockade along with the cotton surplus the Brits had lowered cotton exports to almost nothing. Consequently, the Confederate economy had a recession, then a double dip recession then it totally went into a depression all in a segue manner. Printing greybacks was the answer for Memminger, where they over printed it causing hyperinflation, by like 9,000%. All because they had no money to pay for the war. Match northern imports and production?? Please expound.

 

[John Fenton]

What exactly were the Confederates waiting for that you claim they didn't have much longer to wait?

the election if they had not wasted what resources they had.

The blockade along with the cotton surplus the Brits had lowered cotton exports to almost nothing.

that was a factor regardless of strategies or for every commander.

How much cotton was getting through Mexico?

not enough but more and more as the war progressed plus confederate operatives in europe were selling cotton for local pick up only, in the warehouses and on the dock , some only to be transported after hostilities ended or the south gained the upper hand. the ports were closed regardless of who was in command. i only mentioned it because another poster used it to claim it hampered Lee but it hampered every southern command. i am not aware of Lee reopening any southern ports or preventing any from being closed, not that it was his job to deal with naval operations.

the Confederate Army captured the Texas Camels during the Civil War and used them to move cotton into Mexican ports.
http://uh.edu/engines/epi2415.htm

 

[leftyhunter]

Indeed. But doing the unlikely or impossible is what separates the great from the good.

If a general is outnumbered and his enemies or enemy has better logistics then I would be inclined to give said general the benefit of the doubt in terms of good vs great. Generals can not be expected to be miracle workers.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Not to go off-topic but I've heard of this North Carolina plan before and always thought it was a good move. I imagine the operation would have taken much less casualties then the Overland Campaign and Grant would not be smeared as a "butcher." As I understand it, Grant would have left a significant force on the Rapidan while landing in Carolinas. This would have pinned Lee between the two, he would have to abandon the Rapidan to stop Grant or attack across the river against whoever Grant left behind. Its also interesting that even though Grant did the Overland Campaign, as Lincoln wished, Washington still got attacked by Jubal Early, what was the point? Grant could have just left a corps in Washington and sailed for NC....

I agree that Grant should of been able to use New Berne as his port of entry to enter Virginia through the back door. Just before Peninsula Campaign General Burnside wanted to mount an attack on Goldsboro which would of severely impacted Confederate rail communications to Richmond but Lincoln ordered Burnside to send men to reinforce McCellen.
Jubal Early did get close to Washington DC but didn't do any major harm in the sense that Early couldn't save the Shenedoah Valley or receive pressure on the AnV.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

yes and very similar to johnston but he also would not give up petersburg and richmond. ultimately he did give them up but had he followed johnston's strategy he could have lived to fight another day which he tried to do. if the fall of places like vicksburg and richmond meant the end of the confederacy why fight beyond new orleans , ft henry and donelson, nashville , and memphis ?

not always in the west. plus having longer lines of communication Grant and Sherman developed a tactic of supplying the army off of the countryside thereby having no logistical support.

why were they so limited ? because lee had them chewed up. at war's end johnston surrendered 90,000 troops although many were not under his direct control.

hood actually had a numerical superiority at atlanta and roughly even numbers at peachtree creek. why ?

a comment about the failure of johnston to defend snake creek gap.
i was not the mistake it is made out to be.
first johnston could not stay at rocky face ridge forever. when sherman withdrew so johnston had to also or be encircled . also mcpherson could have gotten in his rear farther south just as Polk did in joining Johnston from alabama or one of the union armies could have flanked the confederates to the east. also let us not forget the examples of missionary ridge and lookout mountain. they did not stop the union armies. as demonstrated at lookout mt. "there ain't no mountain high enough ". these battles doomed atlanta not snake creek gap.
if there was a way to achieve independence it was johnston's way and it was a close thing. without the battles of antietam , gettysburg, and the loss of an army at vicksburg, which in it's self might have prevented the georgia campaign, the south would have been in a much better position in 1864 for foreign recognition or declining northern popular support for lincoln and nomination of a peace candidate.

Lots of interesting points so I will take one at a time.
Not sure about saving the AnV to fight another day. There is only so much territory that can be surrendered and letting Richmond fall to the Union would destroy any hope of Confederate self sufficiency in producing armaments. Also a large army needs access to a reliable transportation network to supply it with food and related military supplies. By the summer of 1864 there weren't many places that the AnV could be based in.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

yes and very similar to johnston but he also would not give up petersburg and richmond. ultimately he did give them up but had he followed johnston's strategy he could have lived to fight another day which he tried to do. if the fall of places like vicksburg and richmond meant the end of the confederacy why fight beyond new orleans , ft henry and donelson, nashville , and memphis ?

not always in the west. plus having longer lines of communication Grant and Sherman developed a tactic of supplying the army off of the countryside thereby having no logistical support.

why were they so limited ? because lee had them chewed up. at war's end johnston surrendered 90,000 troops although many were not under his direct control.

hood actually had a numerical superiority at atlanta and roughly even numbers at peachtree creek. why ?

a comment about the failure of johnston to defend snake creek gap.
i was not the mistake it is made out to be.
first johnston could not stay at rocky face ridge forever. when sherman withdrew so johnston had to also or be encircled . also mcpherson could have gotten in his rear farther south just as Polk did in joining Johnston from alabama or one of the union armies could have flanked the confederates to the east. also let us not forget the examples of missionary ridge and lookout mountain. they did not stop the union armies. as demonstrated at lookout mt. "there ain't no mountain high enough ". these battles doomed atlanta not snake creek gap.
if there was a way to achieve independence it was johnston's way and it was a close thing. without the battles of antietam , gettysburg, and the loss of an army at vicksburg, which in it's self might have prevented the georgia campaign, the south would have been in a much better position in 1864 for foreign recognition or declining northern popular support for lincoln and nomination of a peace candidate.

Interesting point about weather or not the Confederacy should if surrendered by the summer of 1862 after a disastrous string of defeats in the Spring. Yes with 20/20 hindsight the Confederacy should of surrendered. Unfortunately the Confederate leadership thought they could absorb the early blows and come back for a victory just like the Colonial. Vs the British. Unfortunately for the Confederacy there was no foreign savior.
Leftyhunter