Golden Thread Nathaniel Lyon: Hero, Devil, or both?

Good Lord.

Perhaps he should have said "allied" with the confederates, or "affiliated" with the confederates, or "sympathetic" to the confederate side. People are nitpicking just for the sake of nitpicking.

I wouldn't call it nitpicking at all.

A Federal force launching an offensive campaign on a State (and it's militia) not in rebellion at the time is quite a significant detail. It wasn't until Dug Springs that the MSG and Confederate forces fought together.
 
I already said I cant do research until the weekend. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck its a duck. When the MSG fires in U.S. troops then they are in fact Confederate troops. They can call themselves whatever they want but it doesn't change the fact the MSG was a Confederate military orginization.
Leftyhunter

Ridiculous. Please don't keep exposing yourself to this sort of embarrassment. Just express those thoughts as your personal opinion and everyone will cut you some slack. If you keep stating those opinions as fact, you can expect the same correction over and over, and it will be justified correction:

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

In the meantime, can we PLEASE get back to Nathaniel Lyon?
 
Good Lord.

Perhaps he should have said "allied" with the confederates, or "affiliated" with the confederates, or "sympathetic" to the confederate side. People are nitpicking just for the sake of nitpicking.
Yes perhaps least trying to stay within some realm of truthfulness would probably be better then his throwing around blatantly false statements.…. Just in this thread he's made several now...… At some point after repeated false statements.....Good Lord is appropriate, and asking for some accountability to provide references for nonsense statements does become appropriate…….

However for the record the MSG was never CSA nor "affiliated"
Cole Younger never switched sides as he never served the Union at all
And still waiting for those counties who had no guerrilla activity or garrisons.
And no author I'm aware of describes guerrilla motivation as "just to torment Unionists"

Its not as if he made just one misstatement that could be regarded an honest mistake, its one after another..

I suppose the Kansas jayhawkers were CSA since they repeatedly attacked US citizens. Such twisted logic that's frankly freaking nonsense, After all they are attacking Americans looks like the proverbal duck.......
 
Last edited:
Ridiculous. Please don't keep exposing yourself to this sort of embarrassment. Just express those thoughts as your personal opinion and everyone will cut you some slack. If you keep stating those opinions as fact, you can expect the same correction over and over, and it will be justified correction:

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

In the meantime, can we PLEASE get back to Nathaniel Lyon?

As To Lyon I'll mention an author who'll you'll here referred to from time to time here, on Camp Jackson.

"The capture of Frosts camp removed any secessionist threat to St Louis. BUT IT WAS LITTLE SHORT OF A CATASTROPHE FOR THE FEDERAL CAUSE. Lyon was seen as launching an unprovoked attack, and when his troops opened fire on a civilian crowd, he was seen as a ruthless butcher.The shock of it turned borderline Unionists into secessionists and brought rebellion to the fore." T.J. Stiles...…….

Catastrophe pretty well sums in it up, and Stiles is pointing out how he was viewed in Missouri at the time....not post war reconstruction...….
 
Last edited:
Same author on WC

"But how quickly the fortune's of war can change, One moment it appeared Lyon won control of the Missouri with a swift, brilliantly executed campaign; the next moment, Prices victorious army was marching back to the welcoming arms of Clay county. The turnaround began on AUG 10th, when Lyon attacked the camp of Price and Confederate General Ben McCulloch along Wilson's Creek in southwestern Missouri, The secessionists stood firm and soundly thrashed the Union Army. The battered Federals retreated to the northeast, less hundreds of causalities, including Lyon, struck down on the field."


Stiles isn't bad when one reads what he actually says....and not someone's interpretation of what he says...…….he makes some generalities one could question the accuracy of, but overall not bad for a book written about a post war outlaw career and not the CW. Stiles is correct by fighting at WC Lyon threw away everything he had accomplished, the battered federals retreated to Rolla then entrained for St Louis, back to where they had started from....It fell to Fremont to secure the state and drive them out.
 
Last edited:
I already said I cant do research until the weekend. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck its a duck. When the MSG fires in U.S. troops then they are in fact Confederate troops. They can call themselves whatever they want but it doesn't change the fact the MSG was a Confederate military orginization.
Leftyhunter

No, they were a State of Mo organization under overall command of Gov. Jackson.
 
The Missouri State Guard was a state defense force established by the Missouri General Assembly on May 15, 1861. It was not a formation of the Confederate States Army, although the MSG fought alongside Confederate troops and, at times, served under Confederate officers. The battles they fought in were: Boonville, Cole Camp, Carthage, Athens, Wilson's Creek, Dry Wood Creek, Liberty, Lexington, Fredericktown, 1st Battle of Springfield, Skirmish at Blackwater Creek, Skirmish at Island Mound, Roan's Tan Yard, Pea Ridge and Price's Raid.

Their commanders were: C in C - Gov. C.F. Claiborne and Gov. Thomas Reynolds; Major General Sterling Price; Adjutant General - Brigadier General Warwick Hough.
 
Good Lord.

Perhaps he should have said "allied" with the confederates, or "affiliated" with the confederates, or "sympathetic" to the confederate side. People are nitpicking just for the sake of nitpicking.
Exactly right in your basic concept. He should have said "southern leaning" because that would have accurately described a bunch of them. This doesn't alter the fact that they were NOT Confedrates until some of them mustered in with Price in '62.
 
JEFFERSON CITY, Thursday, June 12.
To the People of Missouri: A series of unprovoked and unparalleled outrages have been inflicted on the peace and dignity of this Commonwealth and upon the rights and liberties of its people, by wicked and unprincipled men, professing to set under the authority of the United States Government. The solemn enactments of your Legislature have been mollified; your volunteer soldiers have been taken prisoners; your commerce with your sister States has been suspended; your trade with your own fellow-citizens has been, and is, subjected to increasing control of an armed soldiery; peaceful citizens have been imprisoned without warrant of law; unoffending and defenceless men, women and children have been ruthlessly shot down and murdered, and other unbearable indignities have been heaped upon your State and yourselves. To all were outrages and indignities you have submitted with patriotic forbearance, which his only encouraged the perpetrators of these grievous wrongs to attempt still bolder and more daring usurpations.

It has been my earnest endeavor, under all these embarrassing circumstances, to maintain the peace of the State, and avert, if possible, from our borders the desolating effect of civil war. With that object in view I authorized Maj. Gen. PRICE, several weeks ago, to arrange with Gen. HARNEY, commanding the Federal forces in this State the terms of an agreement, by which the peace of the State might be preserved. They came, on the 21st of May, to an understanding, which was made public. The State authorities have labored faithfully to carry out the terms of that agreement. The Federal Government, on the other hand, not only manifested its strong disapprobation, of it by the instant dismissal of that distinguished officer, who, on its part, entered into it, but it at once began and has unintermittingly carried out a system of hostile operations in utter contempt of that agreement and in reckless disregard of its own pledged faith. The acts have latterly portended revolution and civil war so unmistakably that I resulted to make one further effort to avert these dangers from you. I therefore solicited an interview with Brig. Gen. LYON, commanding the Federal army in Missouri. It was granted on the 11th inst., and waiving all questions of personal and official dignity, I went to St. Louis, accompanied by Major-Gen. PRICE.

We had an interview, on the 11th inst., with Gen. LYON and Col. F.P. BLAIR, Jr., at which I submitted to them the following proposition: That I would disband the State Guard, and break up its organization; that I would disarm all the companies which had been ordered out by the State; that I would pledge myself not to attempt to reorganize the militia under the military bill; that no arms or munitions of war should be brought into the State; that I would protect all dozens equally in their rights, regardless of their political opinions; that I would repress all insurrectionary movements within the State; that I would repel all attempts made to invade it from whatever quarter and by whomsoever made, and that I would thus maintain a strict neutrality in the present unhappy contest, and preserve the peace of the State; and I further proposed that I would, if necessary, invoke the assistance of the United States troops to carry out these pledges. All this I propose to do upon condition that the Federal Government would undertake to disarm the Home Guards, which it has illegally organized and armed throughout the State, and pledge itself not to occupy with its troops any localities in the State not occupied by them at this time. Nothing but the most earnest desire to avert the horrors of civil war from our beloved State could have tempted me to propose these humiliating terms.

They were rejected by the Federal officers. They demanded not only the disorganization and disarming of the State Militia, and the nullification of the Military Bill; but they refused to disarm their own Home Guard, and insisted that the Federal Government should enjoy the unrestricted right to move and station its troops throughout the State whenever and wherever that might, in the opinion of its officers, be necessary, either for the protection of loyal subjects of the Federal Government, or for repelling invasion, and they plainly announced that it was the intention of the Administration to take military occupation, under these pretexts, of the whole State, and reduce it, as avowed by Gen. LYON himself, to the exact condition of Maryland. The acceptance by me of there degrading terms, would not only have sullied the honor of Missouri, but would have aroused the indignation of every brave citizen, and precipitated the very conflict which it has been my aim to prevent. We refused to accede to them and the conference was broken up.

Fellow-citizens, all our efforts toward conciliation have failed. We can hope nothing for the justice or moderation of the agents of the Federal Government in this State. They are energetically hastening the execution of their bloody and revolutionary schemes for the inauguration of civil war in your midst; for the military occupation of your State by an armed band of lawless invaders; for the overthrow of your State Government and for the subversion of those liberties which the Government has always sought to protect; and they intend to exert their whole power to subjugate you, if possible, to the military despotism, which has usurped the powers of the Federal Government.

Now, therefore I, C.F. JACKSON, Governor of the State of Missouri, do, in view of the foregoing facts, and by virtue of the powers vested in me by the Constitution and laws of this Commonwealth, issue this, my proclamation, calling the militia of the State, to the number of 50,000, into active service of the State, for the purpose of repelling such invasions, and for the protection of the lives, liberties and property of the citizens of this State, and I earnestly exhort all good citizens of Missouri to rally to the flag of their State for the protection of their endangered homes and firesides, and for the defence of their most sacred rights and dearest liberties. In issuing this proclamation, I hold it to be my most solemn duty to remind you that Missouri is still one of the United States; that the Executive Department of the State Government does not arrogate to itself the power to disturb that relation. That power has been wisely vested in the Convention which will, at the proper time, express your sovereign will; and that meanwhile it is your duty to obey all constitutional requirements of the Federal Government.

But it is equally my duty to advise you that your first allegiance is due to your own State, and that you are under no obligation whatever to obey the unconstitutional edicts of the military despotism which has introduced itself at Washington, nor submit to the infamous and degrading sway of its wicked minions in the State. No brave-hearted Missourian will obey the one or submit to the other. Rise, then, and drive out ignominiously the invaders who have dared to desecrate the soil which your labors have made fruitful, and which is consecrated by your homes.

(Signed) CLAIBORNE F. JACKSON.
 
Last edited:
Thank you Archie for posting this. It's the first time I have read it in it's entirity.

I'm assuming that some of the words were not interpreted correctly by the computer software, but I believe I can in here what the were supposed to be.

I'm going to have to read it a few time to process it all. At present, I don't see it as a declaration of war, but it comes close.
 
Hmmmm its not so much my fingers get in the way....its more I'm only using one......:bounce:

You typed it out? Wow. Many thanks.

We'll, I'm embarrassed.
It was SWMODave who typed it out. I see that now. Most excellent, Dave.
Dave many thanks and my apologies for not seeing it earlier.

Shame on you Archie for taking the credit.
 
Last edited:
Maybe I'm too tired tonight, or a need a little time, or perhaps I've been listening to the radio too much about our current national situation, but I'm having problems precessing it all.

If you could give a couple of specific examples as to why you think the way you do, it would help.

I think it's margarita time. Gonna break out the gold.
 
I do not need to think much about it. Jackson wrote this with the average joe in mind. I can see and visualize exactly what Jackson is saying in my mind from reading about the history of the early war in the state. I understand he is trying to defend his actions of using the militia (to keep the peace), and condemns those actions by Lyon and the Federal government (the Camp Jackson Affair and the failure of the Price - Harney Agreement without naming them). His solution is calling up the MSG to keep the peace. The war began the minute the Planters' House meeting ended on Tuesday June 11, 1861, so he is justifying his actions in calling out the MSG on June 12, and laying out his case to the people of the state for the declared/undeclared war about to begin. In a sense it was a declaration of war, about as close as there would be to one in the state. It was a little late, but Jackson was free to continue with his agenda for the state. There would be change whether or not anyone was ready for it. There is no denying Jackson had plans for the state, despite any claims he made to Missouri staying neutral. He used armed neutrality as much as he could it was a means for Jackson dragging Missouri into war, and he had Lyon's actions as the catalyst. I do not think Missouri ever had a chance to stay out of the war, because by early 1861, both pro- and anti-secession factions in Missouri were organizing military and paramilitary forces. Secessionists organized as "Minutemen" assisted by some state officials. On February 13, Brigadier General Frost enrolled five companies of St. Louis-area Minutemen as the new 2nd Regiment of the Missouri Volunteer Militia. Then a new law was passed banning all militia activity outside of the state regulated MVM, forcing pro-Union activists to organize in secret, which they did in St. Louis with Lyon's aid. Jackson's actions in calling up the MVM to hold maneuvers at Camp Jackson, near St. Louis, and his asking President Jefferson Davis for aid and assistance, all of this combined to move the state into the pro secessionist camp. Jackson had a plan. Here are the what if's of Missouri in 1861. Given the political conditions of Missouri before Camp Jackson, the legislature would probably have not approved the formation of the MSG. I doubt if Jackson would ever have gained his dictatorial powers by the State legislature, and Price would have probably stayed in the moderate Union camp. Now that is something to think and ponder on. Alas it never happened that way. Now it is way too late for this kind of thinking, I am too tired and there are too many things to do tomorrow.
 
Last edited:

Learn About Us
About CivilWarTalk
Contact the Webmaster
Meet the Staff
Link to CivilWarTalk
Join Our Community
Register
Browse Forums
View Today's Discussions
Search the Forum
Get Help
FAQ
Student Guide
Forum Rules & Etiquette
Copyright / DMCA

     Contact Us CivilwarTalk on Facebook CivilWarTalk on YouTube CivilWarTalk on Twitter RSS Feed

Bringing the American Civil War and More to Life.
© 1999 - , CIVILWARTALK, LLC - Site Version 10.0

SlaveryTalk.com - SecessionTalk.com - CivilWarTalk.com - ReconstructionTalk.com
Back
Top