Golden Thread Nathaniel Lyon: Hero, Devil, or both?

[Lusty Murfax]

Thoughts on the proclamation anyone?

Issued after Camp Jackson. the Planter House Meeting and establishment of Gratiot Prison, just five days before the Battle of Boonville.

 

[leftyhunter]

No, they were a State of Mo organization under overall command of Gov. Jackson.

Fighting on behalf of the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

I'm curious how that makes them Confederate (especially considering that Federal Troops were on the offensive after the meeting in St. Louis)?

Using that reasoning, wouldn't that also make Missouri a Confederate state by default since the MSG was formed as the official militia of the state after the MVM was disbanded?

When MSG forces fire on Federal troops that makes them Confederate. Federal forces can not invade a state. Federal forces in Missouri were lawfully suppressing a rebellion. None of Lyon's actions while none wete ever deemed illegal by any higher federal authority.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Noted you've provided nothing, contrary to every book wrote on the subject..... as I expected with a blatantly false claim.

Also I can't but help notice and be concerned, have you had yourself checked for bi polar?

One day you'll argue if someone isn't charged with something it must mean it didn't happen, then others as today you're saying if it looks like a duck, it must be a duck....even though you know no legal charges had been made against the MVM or the MSG as to somehow being illegal in any way. It's very erratic......

If you have studied Civil War history then you would know almost all who fought for the Confederacy were pardoned so no need to prosocute former members of the MSG.
Lyon's actions were well known he never hid in the brush like the terrorists who murdered unarmed boys and men at Lawrence, Kansas.
President Lincoln or General Scott could of ordered Lyon arrested at any time after the Camp Jackson Affair.
Leftyhunter

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Fighting on behalf of the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter

Your opinion is baseless. The following has been demonstrated and practically documented for any who care to be informed on the matter. That the MSG was formed by and fought on behalf of the people of Missouri, in response to an unprovoked assault from out of State and foreign sourced Federal militia troops mustered by a Federal Gov't disinterested in peaceful resolution of differences in pursuit of it's military conquest elsewhere. The State of Missouri had negotiated in good faith with the Federal military authority and the agreements derived were unilaterally abrogated almost as soon as the ink was dry. Lyon and Blair were almost solely responsible for the turmoil that descended on Missouri as a result.

 

[leftyhunter]

Your opinion is baseless. The following has been demonstrated and practically documented for any who care to be informed on the matter. That the MSG was formed by and fought on behalf of the people of Missouri, in response to an unprovoked assault from out of State and foreign sourced Federal militia troops mustered by a Federal Gov't disinterested in peaceful resolution of differences in pursuit of it's military conquest elsewhere. The State of Missouri had negotiated in good faith with the Federal military authority and the agreements derived were unilaterally abrogated almost as soon as the ink was dry. Lyon and Blair were almost solely responsible for the turmoil that descended on Missouri as a result.

A state can not negotiate if it can or can not allow federal troops to transit or station themselves where ever they are needed to repress a rebellion. The MSG was called upon to fight federal troops lawfully engaged in repressing a rebellion.
Lyin was absolutely right when he pointed that out to Govenor Jackson and former Govenor Price.
There is no such thing as neutrality in a Civil War .
The Confederacy threatned young men with death if they did join the Confederate Army and the Union drafted men into either the militia or Union Army.
A civil war is always about makung a choice of fight or flight. There is no such thing as neutrality.
Leftyhunter

 

[BillO]

He was big on politics but a very weak soldier.

 

[Rebforever]

JEFFERSON CITY, Thursday, June 12.
To the People of Missouri: A series of unprovoked and unparalleled outrages have been inflicted on the peace and dignity of this Commonwealth and upon the rights and liberties of its people, by wicked and unprincipled men, professing to set under the authority of the United States Government. The solemn enactments of your Legislature have been mollified; your volunteer soldiers have been taken prisoners; your commerce with your sister States has been suspended; your trade with your own fellow-citizens has been, and is, subjected to increasing control of an armed soldiery; peaceful citizens have been imprisoned without warrant of law; unoffending and defenceless men, women and children have been ruthlessly shot down and murdered, and other unbearable indignities have been heaped upon your State and yourselves. To all were outrages and indignities you have submitted with patriotic forbearance, which his only encouraged the perpetrators of these grievous wrongs to attempt still bolder and more daring usurpations. It has been my earnest endeavor, under all these embarrassing circumstances, to maintain the peace of the State, and avert, if possible, from our borders the desolating effect of civil war. With that object in view I authorized Maj. Gen. PRICE, several weeks ago, to arrange with Gen. HARNEY, commanding the Federal forces in this State the terms of an agreement, by which the peace of the State might be preserved. They came, on the 21st of May, to an understanding, which was made public. The State authorities have labored faithfully to carry out the terms of that agreement. The Federal Government, on the other hand, not only manifested its strong disapprobation, of it by the instant dismissal of that distinguished officer, who, on its part, entered into it, but it at once began and has unintermittingly carried out a system of hostile operations in utter contempt of that agreement and in reckless disregard of its own pledged faith. The acts have latterly portended revolution and civil war so unmistakably that I resulted to make one further effort to avert these dangers from you. I therefore solicited an interview with Brig. Gen. LYON, commanding the Federal army in Missouri. It was granted on the 11th inst., and waiving all questions of personal and official dignity, I went to St. Louis, accompanied by Major-Gen. PRICE. We had an interview, on the 11th inst., with Gen. LYON and Col. F.P. BLAIR, Jr., at which I submitted to them the following proposition: That I would disband the State Guard, and break up its organization; that I would disarm all the companies which had been ordered out by the State; that I would pledge myself not to attempt to reorganize the militia under the military bill; that no arms or munitions of war should be brought into the State; that I would protect all dozens equally in their rights, regardless of their political opinions; that I would repress all insurrectionary movements within the State; that I would repel all attempts made to invade it from whatever quarter and by whomsoever made, and that I would thus maintain a strict neutrality in the present unhappy contest, and preserve the peace of the State; and I further proposed that I would, if necessary, invoke the assistance of the United States troops to carry out these pledges. All this I propose to do upon condition that the Federal Government would undertake to disarm the Home Guards, which it has illegally organized and armed throughout the State, and pledge itself not to occupy with its troops any localities in the State not occupied by them at this time. Nothing but the most earnest desire to avert the horrors of civil war from our beloved State could have tempted me to propose these humiliating terms. They were rejected by the Federal officers. They demanded not only the disorganization and disarming of the State Militia, and the nullification of the Military Bill; but they refused to disarm their own Home Guard, and insisted that the Federal Government should enjoy the unrestricted right to move and station its troops throughout the State whenever and wherever that might, in the opinion of its officers, be necessary, either for the protection of loyal subjects of the Federal Government, or for repelling invasion, and they plainly announced that it was the intention of the Administration to take military occupation, under these pretexts, of the whole State, and reduce it, as avowed by Gen. LYON himself, to the exact condition of Maryland. The acceptance by me of there degrading terms, would not only have sullied the honor of Missouri, but would have aroused the indignation of every brave citizen, and precipitated the very conflict which it has been my aim to prevent. We refused to accede to them and the conference was broken up. Fellow-citizens, all our efforts toward conciliation have failed. We can hope nothing for the justice or moderation of the agents of the Federal Government in this State. They are energetically hastening the execution of their bloody and revolutionary schemes for the inauguration of civil war in your midst; for the military occupation of your State by an armed band of lawless invaders; for the overthrow of your State Government and for the subversion of those liberties which the Government has always sought to protect; and they intend to exert their whole power to subjugate you, if possible, to the military despotism, which has usurped the powers of the Federal Government.
Now, therefore I, C.F. JACKSON, Governor of the State of Missouri, do, in view of the foregoing facts, and by virtue of the powers vested in me by the Constitution and laws of this Commonwealth, issue this, my proclamation, calling the militia of the State, to the number of 50,000, into active service of the State, for the purpose of repelling such invasions, and for the protection of the lives, liberties and property of the citizens of this State, and I earnestly exhort all good citizens of Missouri to rally to the flag of their State for the protection of their endangered homes and firesides, and for the defence of their most sacred rights and dearest liberties. In issuing this proclamation, I hold it to be my most solemn duty to remind you that Missouri is still one of the United States; that the Executive Department of the State Government does not arrogate to itself the power to disturb that relation. That power has been wisely vested in the Convention which will, at the proper time, express your sovereign will; and that meanwhile it is your duty to obey all constitutional requirements of the Federal Government. But it is equally my duty to advise you that your first allegiance is due to your own State, and that you are under no obligation whatever to obey the unconstitutional edicts of the military despotism which has introduced itself at Washington, nor submit to the infamous and degrading sway of its wicked minions in the State. No brave-hearted Missourian will obey the one or submit to the other. Rise, then, and drive out ignominiously the invaders who have dared to desecrate the soil which your labors have made fruitful, and which is consecrated by your homes. (Signed) CLAIBORNE F. JACKSON.

Just a suggestion. I have a hard time reading this because it all runs together. Space it out in paragraphs would surely help.

Marshall

 

[Patrick H]

Gentlemen,

Why don't we all take a break for a few minutes?

This is Patrick's thread, and I don't mean to overstep, but I know he has a guest in town tonight so he's probably occupied

Thank you, @Booner.

 

[Patrick H]

My initial reactions to Jackson's proclamation:

First of all, many thanks to SWMODave for transcribing the whole thing. This is the first time I've seen it in its entirety. It is very pertinent to our discussion of Lyon.

Second, it is fascinating to me to see how Jackson laid out his case, point by point and step by step. On the surface, he makes a clear, defensible case for calling the MSG into organization. Reading between the lines, it is easy to see him trying to position the state for his own secessionist objectives. He was a cunning and crafty politician and a real pot-stirrer!

Third, knowing what we now know, I can't take Jackson seriously when he went on at length about the concessions he was prepared to make to keep the feds out of the state. It appears that Harney was going to give him a chance to keep his word before he (Harney) was relieved. Is that accurate? Or is that simply the way Jackson presents it in his proclamation? I'm guessing it was Harney's intention and that's why Blair had him recalled.

Jackson was a hot-headed firebrand and is probably worthy of his own thread. An interesting and unrelated sidebar about Jackson: He married all the daughters in a family--in succession. He outlived each of them. Each time one wife died, he went to the father and asked for the next girl's hand. When he got to the last daughter, the father consented, but told Jackson not to come back asking for the mother's hand in marriage--she was not available!

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Every Missourian interested in our history should read Snead's The Fight For Missouri. His, is a relatively comprehensive first hand account of the events that lead to our CW.

 

[Patrick H]

When MSG forces fire on Federal troops that makes them Confederate.

Fallacy. Please express this sort of thing as an opinion. It is not fact and it is historically inaccurate. Mustering into the Confederacy made them Confederate.

Federal forces in Missouri were lawfully suppressing a rebellion.

After the fight started at Boonville, Federal forces in Missouri were suppressing a rebellion. Whether they always did it lawfully is subject to considerable discussion. Prior to the fight in Boonville June 17, 1861, there was no official rebellion in Missouri. (There was certainly some sentiment for rebellion) Federal forces were not suppressing a rebellion prior to that date, but Lyon sure was stirring up trouble.[/QUOTE]

 

[leftyhunter]

Fallacy. Please express this sort of thing as an opinion. It is not fact and it is historically inaccurate. Mustering into the Confederacy made them Confederate.



After the fight started at Boonville, Federal forces in Missouri were suppressing a rebellion. Whether they always did it lawfully is subject to considerable discussion. Prior to the fight in Boonville June 17, 1861, there was no official rebellion in Missouri. (There was certainly some sentiment for rebellion) Federal forces were not suppressing a rebellion prior to that date, but Lyon sure was stirring up trouble.

[/QUOTE]
Lyon wasn't stupid enough to wait for the secessionists to strike the first blow. Lyon struck when he had the advantage. Lyon was praised by Congress for doing so . Sounds like Lyon did the right thing for his country.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

He was big on politics but a very weak soldier.

Lyon was cited for bravery in the Mexican American War. Lyon only commanded an army in one battle and lost. General Lee lost several battles i.e. Malvern Hill, Antietam Gettysburg, therefore to ve fair can we also say Lee is a weak general?
Leftyhunter

 

[archieclement]

If you have studied Civil War history then you would know almost all who fought for the Confederacy were pardoned so no need to prosocute former members of the MSG.
Lyon's actions were well known he never hid in the brush like the terrorists who murdered unarmed boys and men at Lawrence, Kansas.
President Lincoln or General Scott could of ordered Lyon arrested at any time after the Camp Jackson Affair.
Leftyhunter

If you ever have read leftyhunter, every other day he is saying if one isn't charged with a crime, there was no crime.......guess this is your off day with your flip flop logic that changes all the time...…

If they couldn't make cases against the confederates in the 2 years they had postwar before amnesty....3 months is a lot shorter time before little Mr. Popinjay got himself killed...….once again your logic thread to thread is a little on the bi polar inconsistent side...…..

 

[leftyhunter]

Fallacy. Please express this sort of thing as an opinion. It is not fact and it is historically inaccurate. Mustering into the Confederacy made them Confederate.



After the fight started at Boonville, Federal forces in Missouri were suppressing a rebellion. Whether they always did it lawfully is subject to considerable discussion. Prior to the fight in Boonville June 17, 1861, there was no official rebellion in Missouri. (There was certainly some sentiment for rebellion) Federal forces were not suppressing a rebellion prior to that date, but Lyon sure was stirring up trouble.

[/QUOTE]
No fallacy at all the MSG was the Confederate Army in every way but name. They only fought against federal forces all the way to Pea Ridge. They never engaged Confederate forces.
Leftyhunter

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Lyon was clairvoyant, too? Regarding the Congress. By this time, they were committed to war against the Southern States and no one was left near the levers of power who could counsel restraint. Using your rationale, they would have approved the murder of every man, woman and child then living in Missouri.

 

[archieclement]

Fallacy. Please express this sort of thing as an opinion. It is not fact and it is historically inaccurate. Mustering into the Confederacy made them Confederate.



After the fight started at Boonville, Federal forces in Missouri were suppressing a rebellion. Whether they always did it lawfully is subject to considerable discussion. Prior to the fight in Boonville June 17, 1861, there was no official rebellion in Missouri. (There was certainly some sentiment for rebellion) Federal forces were not suppressing a rebellion prior to that date, but Lyon sure was stirring up trouble.

Cant but help notice hes apparently drawing a blank on major historians who claim the MSG was confederate or in its service, as the the only source hes still providing is just his own ridiculous claim.

Because it seems another day of yapping nonsense like a chihuahua, and another day of providing no sources to substantiate the nonsense...….. Wish we could throw cyber dog treats.....

 

[4th-MSM]

When MSG forces fire on Federal troops that makes them Confederate. Federal forces can not invade a state. Federal forces in Missouri were lawfully suppressing a rebellion. None of Lyon's actions while none wete ever deemed illegal by any higher federal authority.
Leftyhunter

Thanks, but repeating your claim doesn't provide an answer to my question.

In regards to the rest of your post, everything from my research shows that Missouri was not in rebellion at the time Lyon began his campaign against the state. In previous threads I've asked what your opinion is based on and after multiple pages the only responses I received were the same claims repeated as fact. I'm still not buying it and to be honest, I'm really not interested in going down that road again unless you are willing to provide sources.

 

[Patrick H]

They never engaged Confederate forces.

?