Golden Thread Nathaniel Lyon: Hero, Devil, or both?

[Patrick H]

Nathaniel Lyon will forever be one of the most controversial figures of the Civil War. It is all-too-easy to get into an argument about him which will completely derail a different thread.

In fact, that has been happening on a thread that is more properly devoted to the Missouri / Kansas border war of the mid 1850s

I am launching this thread so we can move the Lyon discussion away from the border war thread. It will come as no surprise to anyone who has read my posts through the years that I am a proud resident of Boonville, Missouri, where the Civil War officially started in my great state. I have never kept my feelings toward Nathaniel Lyon, who was involved in that battle, much of a secret. I know and fully understand that my feelings toward Lyon are not universally held.

All that said, I now notify @Archiclement, @Borderruffian, @leftyhunter, @Booner, @Boonslick, @Bee, @Rebforever, @Yankeebrit and all others whom I might have missed (apologies offered now), that we should discuss our views of Lyon right here, and leave him out of the Missouri / Kansas border war discussion.

Ladies and gentlemen: This is sure to be contentious, but it doesn't have to be disrespectful. Let us exchange our views with vigor and passion, but please remember to avoid insulting sarcasm and snarkiness. All opinions deserve respect. Hopefully, most posts will be backed up with source material that we feel supports our varying points of view. Let's keep our wits about ourselves, but as long as we are respectful of others, let's be vigorous.

I will start my own potentially contentious thread by stating that I think Lyon was a puppet of Frank Blair, Jr.,

...next...

 

[Jimklag]

I think Banks was Blair's puppet and a bad general, who, to quote a certain 2nd Maine private, "Couldn't lead a johnny detail or pour pee outta a boot with the instructions writ on the heel."

 

[Booner]

.........I will start my own potentially contentious thread by stating that I think Lyon was a puppet of Frank Blair, Jr.,

...next...

No argument from me with reguards on that point. You can't discuss Lyons without including Frank Blair. Hand-in-glove.

 

[Patrick H]

I think Banks was Blair's puppet and a bad general, who, to quote a certain 2nd Maine private, "Couldn't lead a johnny detail or pour pee outta a boot with the instructions writ on the heel."

That quote is hilarious! I am glad you posted it!

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Lyon was a madman, ill suited for major command. Had the Lincoln Admin been patient, ignored Blair's counsel, left Harney in place and made a reasonable effort to negotiate honestly with Missouri officials, things might not have gotten off to such a hot start. State leaders were officially pursuing a neutral course to keep Missouri out of a war against their Southern brothers. Missouri was a sovereign State, not yet in rebellion with opposing views from roughly equal portions of the population regarding the direction the State should take. Lincoln's choice to follow Blair's advice wrecked any chance for peaceful resolution of differences in Missouri.

 

[Jimklag]

That quote is hilarious! I am glad you posted it!

My late father-in-law would have said, "you can give him dirt and water and he couldn't make mud."

 

[Lusty Murfax]

That quote is hilarious! I am glad you posted it!

One of the colloquial sayings many of us grew up with. When I use it nowadays, sometimes the response is, ''why were you pi$$ing in your own boot".

 

[Patrick H]

Lyon was a madman, ill suited for major command. Had the Lincoln Admin been patient, ignored Blair's counsel, left Harney in place and made a reasonable effort to negotiate honestly with Missouri officials, things might not have gotten off to such a hot start. State leaders were officially pursuing a neutral course to keep Missouri out of a war against their Southern brothers. Missouri was a sovereign State, not yet in rebellion with opposing views from roughly equal portions of the population regarding the direction the State should take. Lincoln's choice to follow Blair's advice wrecked any chance for peaceful resolution of differences in Missouri.

Good points. I think Harney was by far the more level headed and wiser man. But he was out of town on that fateful day when Lyon slammed his fist onto the table at the Planters House Hotel, wasn't he? Thus, a war started sooner than needed in Missouri, and it brought unimaginable suffering to everyone who lived here.

 

[Jimklag]

That quote is hilarious! I am glad you posted it!

I believe his name was Private Bucklin - 2nd Maine mutineer - and he made the comment to the Michael Shaara version of Joshua L. Chamberlain who looks a lot like my avatar.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Good points. I think Harney was by far the more level headed and wiser man. But he was out of town on that fateful day when Lyon slammed his fist onto the table at the Planters House Hotel, wasn't he? Thus, a war started sooner than needed in Missouri, and it brought unimaginable suffering to everyone who lived here.

Yes, he was. IIRC, Blair had Army HQ in DC recall Gen. Harney for consultation. I don't recall whether he actually traveled all the way to WDC before being relieved and replaced by Capt. Lyon. In Snead's The Fight For Missouri, he claimed that Harney had been in discussions with Gov. Jackson's emissaries regarding turning over the arms stored in the St. Louis Arsenal to the Missouri State Militia. Blair, who had been encouraging the organizing and training of the para-military German Turners in St. Louis got wind of this and panicked and arranged for Lyon's transfer from kansas. Capt. Lyon, once in St. Louis maneuvered to get himself assigned essentially as commander of the detail guarding the Arsenal. He promptly kept 10,000 brace of arms for his St. Louis Germans and shipped the rest across the River to Illinois. I believe Lyon almost immediately armed two regiments of roughly 2,000 Turners. Some today claim these actions were authorized in advance. Maybe that is true, but I have seen no such orders documented.

 

[Patrick H]

In fairness to my own thread, I will say that I don't believe Lyon was the only hot head who met on the field east of Boonville on June 17, 1861. Missouri's own pro-secessionist governor Claiborne Fox Jackson was spoiling for a fight. Price advised him against it (Price was suffering from such a case of dysentery that he couldn't even be present to command his own troops.) All of the seasoned army officers available tried to caution Jackson against opposing Lyon on the field. Their cautions fell on deaf ears. In my opinion, Jackson was Lyon's equal as an off-the-hook, irresponsible hot head. Some fine boys on either side fell that day because their superiors were absolute jerks.

 

[E_just_E]

Everyone who leads armed forces in killing 400 unarmed civilians, mainly women and children, like Lyon did in the Bloody Island Massacre, cannot be called a "hero", no mater what he did later in life.

 

[Bee]

Thank you for notifying, @Patrick H . I need more clarification on this topic, and it is very difficult to gain this knowledge in-between the back and forth struggle between some folks around here.

 

[Patrick H]

Thank you for notifying, @Patrick H . I need more clarification on this topic, and it is very difficult to gain this knowledge in-between the back and forth struggle between some folks around here.

Hi, Bee. I am pretty sure your library includes "The Battle Cry of Freedom." There, you will see Lyon presented as the Union's very first hero of the Civil War (which he surely was.) However, if you read between the lines, you will see that even McPherson believes Lyon acted impetuously, perhaps beyond his authorization, and that his actions wrought unimaginable suffering on the state of Missouri not only for the duration of the Civil War, but for decades to follow.

Follow along on this thread as best you can, and I am sure @Booner and others and I can provide links which will give you further insights.

Ultimately, I know you will have to form your own conclusions of Lyon, and I know it's possible that your conclusions will differ from mine. That's okay if it happens. Lyon's case will NEVER be hashed out to everyone's satisfaction!

 

[Patrick H]

Everyone who leads armed forces in killing 400 unarmed civilians, mainly women and children, like Lyon did in the Bloody Island Massacre, cannot be called a "hero", no mater what he did later in life.

Whoah...I am not familiar with the Bloody Island Massacre. Please enlighten me. That is NOT a trick request. Please DO! I am pretty sure a bunch of other folks want to know about this, too!

 

[Lusty Murfax]

I believe it occurred after his Mexican War service when he was posted out west in California Territory. The Army massacred between several score and several hundred women, children and old people of an Indian village. Lyon was supposedly in command of a company involved in the raid.

 

[diane]

Whoah...I am not familiar with the Bloody Island Massacre. Please enlighten me. That is NOT a trick request. Please DO! I am pretty sure a bunch of other folks want to know about this, too!

Bloody Island is a hill now - used to be an island - at Clear Lake in California. Here is a link to a fairly accurate account of what happened there and why. Even sadder, Lyons annihilated an innocent band of Pomos who had nothing to do with the Kelsey/Stone killings. And, I might add, there weren't two men in California who needed killin' more than this pair! (Kelsey is the namesake for the town of Kelseyville on Clear Lake.)

http://www.chrisanddavid.com/clearlakemassacre/

ps
Recent studies (the article is about 15 years old but still basically accurate) have shown the total killed was actually nearer 600.

 

[E_just_E]

Whoah...I am not familiar with the Bloody Island Massacre. Please enlighten me. That is NOT a trick request. Please DO! I am pretty sure a bunch of other folks want to know about this, too!

The wikipedia entry is here, but is fairly rudimentary. May 1850, around Clear Lake, North of San Francisco against Pomo Natives

 

[Patrick H]

Bloody Island is a hill now - used to be an island - at Clear Lake in California. Here is a link to a fairly accurate account of what happened there and why. Even sadder, Lyons annihilated an innocent band of Pomos who had nothing to do with the Kelsey/Stone killings. And, I might add, there weren't two men in California who needed killin' more than this pair! (Kelsey is the namesake for the town of Kelseyville on Clear Lake.)

http://www.chrisanddavid.com/clearlakemassacre/

ps
Recent studies (the article is about 15 years old but still basically accurate) have shown the total killed was actually nearer 600.

Thank you, Diane! I will follow your link and study up on this incident. You can depend on it!

 

[Patrick H]

The wikipedia entry is here, but is fairly rudimentary. May 1850, around Clear Lake, North of San Francisco against Pomo Natives

[/QUOTEObviously didn't get my reply posted. This is an amazing tragedy and I'd never heard of it until now.]