Golden Thread Nathaniel Lyon: Hero, Devil, or both?

[Lusty Murfax]

Most Confederate Missourians served out of state. They did not see the necessity of staying behind in Missouri to protect their families. Those who became guerrillas did so to torment Unionists.
Leftyhunter

You aren't trying hard enough to become informed. The Missourians complained long and loud regarding being taken south into Arkansas after Elkhorn Tavern, instead of returning to fight for their State. This is why so many MSG declined to join Confederate service after Lexington. When Price followed orders and prepared to take his small army east across the River to join the Army of Mississippi, he promised the men that he would lead them back and they would liberate Missouri together. It was a promise he was unable to keep. First Van Dorn and later Pemberton refused to release them to return to the Trans Mississippi and to eventually to Missouri. After Vicksburg the Missouri Brigade, the survivors of Price's original army was transferred to the Army of Tennessee under Johnston.

 

[archieclement]

You aren't trying hard enough to become informed. The Missourians complained long and loud regarding being taken south into Arkansas after Elkhorn Tavern, instead of returning to fight for their State. This is why so many MSG declined to join Confederate service after Lexington. When Price followed orders and prepared to take his small army east across the River to join the Army of Mississippi, he promised the men that he would lead them back and they would liberate Missouri together. It was a promise he was unable to keep. First Van Dorn and later Pemberton refused to release them to return to the Trans Mississippi and to eventually to Missouri. After Vicksburg the Missouri Brigade, the survivors of Price's original army was transferred to the Army of Tennessee under Johnston.

well in fairness......….its hard to get a detailed or informed view on the Trans Mississippi and AOT from a book about a post war outlaw...….

Don't think Stiles mentions Price lobbying for himself and his men to return to the T-M...…….as it didn't really relate to Jesse James...…...

 

[Lusty Murfax]

well in fairness......….its hard to get a detailed or informed view on the Trans Mississippi and AOT from a book about a post war outlaw...….

You know what they say. When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[4th-MSM]

At Patrick H's request, my post from another thread:

It is a testament to their defeat that the Federal troops commanded by Lyon, including those fighting physically near him at Oak Hills failed to protect him or to retrieve his body. Instead, they dropped their weapons and fled the field and it was many hours later when they found cover and relative safety in Springfield that they sent out emissaries to Price asking for Lyon's body. Price had argued with McCulloch to join him and chase the Federals north all the way to St. Louis, if necessary to complete their destruction. However, McCulloch refused saying it exceeded his orders.

I've read reports of the disposition of Lyon's body in histories, including Tucker's Westerners In Gray. Apparently, having driven the Yankees off the hill, upon which the main battle had taken place and where Lyon met his demise, the boys wanted to chop up his body and scatter the pieces for the varmints to clean up. Cooler heads prevailed and they carried Lyon's body from the field and left it in repose at a nearby farmhouse for the Federals to collect. Eventually, arrangements were made to convey his body back to his Army, which was in full retreat toward the railhead at Rolla.

Just to add, after being recovered from the battlefield and taken to Springfield, Lyon's body was again left behind when the Federals continued their retreat. Mrs. Phelps, wife of John S. Phelps, buried Lyon's remains in her garden until the arrangements were eventually made to take the body back to Connecticut.

 

[Patrick H]

Most Confederate Missourians served out of state. They did not see the necessity of staying behind in Missouri to protect their families. Those who became guerrillas did so to torment Unionists.
Leftyhunter

I can't fully agree with this. Yes, most of those in Confederate army served out of state. I'm sure some were content to serve wherever. Many, including Price, wanted to return to Missouri, but didn't get the chance until 1864. Marmaduke and Shelby raided with comparatively small forces. But I think a lot of the guys who had served with the State Guard really didn't want to serve outside of the state. We have the testimony of some of them (diaries and memoirs) to that effect. Your last statement is far too sweeping to be accurate. It's just silly to think those guys became guerrillas just so they could torment unionists. Some of them were from unionist families.

 

[DanSBHawk]

At Patrick H's request, my post from another thread:

It is a testament to their defeat that the Federal troops commanded by Lyon, including those fighting physically near him at Oak Hills failed to protect him or to retrieve his body. Instead, they dropped their weapons and fled the field and it was many hours later when they found cover and relative safety in Springfield that they sent out emissaries to Price asking for Lyon's body. Price had argued with McCulloch to join him and chase the Federals north all the way to St. Louis, if necessary to complete their destruction. However, McCulloch refused saying it exceeded his orders.

I've read reports of the disposition of Lyon's body in histories, including Tucker's Westerners In Gray. Apparently, having driven the Yankees off the hill, upon which the main battle had taken place and where Lyon met his demise, the boys wanted to chop up his body and scatter the pieces for the varmints to clean up. Cooler heads prevailed and they carried Lyon's body from the field and left it in repose at a nearby farmhouse for the Federals to collect. Eventually, arrangements were made to convey his body back to his Army, which was in full retreat toward the railhead at Rolla.

This is not accurate. Lyon's body was not left where he fell on the field. Schofield ordered Lyon's body to the rear while the battle was still in progress. Lt Schreyer took the body to the rear, accompanied by one of Lyon's orderlies, Pvt Lehman, to a hospital area filled with dead and wounded. It was expected that an ambulance wagon was going to transport the body to Springfield. And the federals did not "drop their weapons and flee." The retreat was described as being orderly with no pursuit by the confederates. In fact, Schofield thought it was a mistake to retreat from the field.

 

[leftyhunter]

You aren't trying hard enough to become informed. The Missourians complained long and loud regarding being taken south into Arkansas after Elkhorn Tavern, instead of returning to fight for their State. This is why so many MSG declined to join Confederate service after Lexington. When Price followed orders and prepared to take his small army east across the River to join the Army of Mississippi, he promised the men that he would lead them back and they would liberate Missouri together. It was a promise he was unable to keep. First Van Dorn and later Pemberton refused to release them to return to the Trans Mississippi and to eventually to Missouri. After Vicksburg the Missouri Brigade, the survivors of Price's original army was transferred to the Army of Tennessee under Johnston.

After Pea Ridge the Confederate Army fled South into Arkansas. General Curtis was was able to march all the way down south to capture Helena. No way the Confederate Army was going nirth into Missouri. You might want to re review the battle of Pea Ridge.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

I can't fully agree with this. Yes, most of those in Confederate army served out of state. I'm sure some were content to serve wherever. Many, including Price, wanted to return to Missouri, but didn't get the chance until 1864. Marmaduke and Shelby raided with comparatively small forces. But I think a lot of the guys who had served with the State Guard really didn't want to serve outside of the state. We have the testimony of some of them (diaries and memoirs) to that effect. Your last statement is far too sweeping to be accurate. It's just silly to think those guys became guerrillas just so they could torment unionists. Some of them were from unionist families.

In war people are known to switch sides the Younger Brothers being a good example.
Tormenting Unionists is what Confederate guerrillas did. A good objective source is " The Inside War" Michael Fellman a Canadian history professor who did extensive research on the insurgency in Missouri.
Leftyhunter

 

[DanSBHawk]

Here's an interesting article that argues that Lyon's reputation in Missouri suffered post-war due to the Lost Cause confederate apologists.

http://www.academia.edu/19602649/Th..._Nathaniel_Lyon_in_the_Missouri_State_Capitol

 

[archieclement]

In war people are known to switch sides the Younger Brothers being a good example.
Tormenting Unionists is what Confederate guerrillas did. A good objective source is " The Inside War" Michael Fellman a Canadian history professor who did extensive research on the insurgency in Missouri.
Leftyhunter

Seriously?

"Although their methods were robbery, arson, murder-terrorism-they believed that they were noble American revolutionaries fighting for the liberation of Missouri from the Yankee invader and his lowly Missouri minions. They were the defenders of helpless women and children. They were the blood avengers for their brothers and comrades and civilian supporters killed by the Federals. They were free men on the hunt for justice, killing evil bad principled men in the name of traditional American liberty. They would obliterate the enemy, every last devil, or die in glory"

Michael Fellman Inside War...……...no mention of just being motivated to torment unionists, perhaps you'll provide that passage

 

[archieclement]

Here's an interesting article that argues that Lyon's reputation in Missouri suffered post-war due to the Lost Cause confederate apologists.

http://www.academia.edu/19602649/Th..._Nathaniel_Lyon_in_the_Missouri_State_Capitol

If you read his bio and Mrs Phelps accounts, apparently his reputation had suffered well before the end of the war...…. she provided numerous examples of the MSG disdain for him. To say he was somehow universally loved in Missouri at the time would be false.

Its interesting the article has same conclusion of Snead as I did however.

His statues coming down is a interesting comparison to today. There are those who argue if the community changes it mind, it should have came down.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

Just to add, after being recovered from the battlefield and taken to Springfield, Lyon's body was again left behind when the Federals continued their retreat. Mrs. Phelps, wife of John S. Phelps, buried Lyon's remains in her garden until the arrangements were eventually made to take the body back to Connecticut.

Thanks, I forgot about that. Just goes to show you how significant a national hero Lyon was to the Union.

 

[Patrick H]

Tormenting Unionists is what Confederate guerrillas did.

Your statements are far too sweeping and non-specific. I think your statements often tend to be purely silly in that regard.
If you had said: Tormenting SOME unionists is what SOME Confederate guerrillas did, I'd have been more willing to accept your point.

I do note that you referenced the Younger family. For the benefit of those among our readers who don't know this, Cole Younger was a noted guerrilla who came from a noted unionist family. He did not spend the war tormenting unionists. It seems clear to me that his guerrilla career was much more directed to fighting Jayhawkers, Federal-aligned militia, and the like.

But let's continue to focus on the subject of this thread: Nathaniel Lyon.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

This is not accurate. Lyon's body was not left where he fell on the field. Schofield ordered Lyon's body to the rear while the battle was still in progress. Lt Schreyer took the body to the rear, accompanied by one of Lyon's orderlies, Pvt Lehman, to a hospital area filled with dead and wounded. It was expected that an ambulance wagon was going to transport the body to Springfield. And the federals did not "drop their weapons and flee." The retreat was described as being orderly with no pursuit by the confederates. In fact, Schofield thought it was a mistake to retreat from the field.

Don't know where you read that. Sounds like some CYA to me. Several Missouri sources stated that the MSG soldiers wanted to chop Lyon's body to pieces and they were prevented by one of their officers. I can't recall the officer's name, but I believe he was from the 5th Missouri. As @4th-MSM posted, Lyon's body was taken to a local farmhouse and put on ice by order of Gen. Price. Additionally, the Federal soldiers did drop their weapons and fled. Missouri officers recorded the number and types of arms found abandoned on the battlefield after the Yankees left. As I have been repeatedly told on this site, the victors get to write the history and that would be the Missourians.

 

[archieclement]

This is not accurate. Lyon's body was not left where he fell on the field. Schofield ordered Lyon's body to the rear while the battle was still in progress. Lt Schreyer took the body to the rear, accompanied by one of Lyon's orderlies, Pvt Lehman, to a hospital area filled with dead and wounded. It was expected that an ambulance wagon was going to transport the body to Springfield. And the federals did not "drop their weapons and flee." The retreat was described as being orderly with no pursuit by the confederates. In fact, Schofield thought it was a mistake to retreat from the field.

Odd Scofield was conspicuously silent at the council of war in his quarters the night of the 10th,where the officers unanimously agreed to retreat further at 2 am because they feared further attacks in the morning.

Also Sturgis held a council on Bloody Hill after Lyons death where the consensus was unless Sigel relieved them with a flank attack soon, they must retreat.

At the hospital either an orderly or surgeon not recognizing Lyon, he was still in a captains uniform had the body removed from the wagon to make way for the living wounded as they readied to retreat

referring to Piston and Hatchers Wilsons Creek for councils info.

 

[archieclement]

Your statements are far too sweeping and non-specific. I think your statements often tend to be purely silly in that regard.
If you had said: Tormenting SOME unionists is what SOME Confederate guerrillas did, I'd have been more willing to accept your point.

I do note that you referenced the Younger family. For the benefit of those among our readers who don't know this, Cole Younger was a noted guerrilla who came from a noted unionist family. He did not spend the war tormenting unionists. It seems clear to me that his guerrilla career was much more directed to fighting Jayhawkers, Federal-aligned militia, and the like.

But let's continue to focus on the subject of this thread: Nathaniel Lyon.

Nor did Cole switch sides, he had enlisted in the MSG, returned home, then became a guerrilla, wasn't ever in Union militia or army that I know, doesn't appear in the soldier/sailor database as one......

 

[DanSBHawk]

Don't know where you read that. Sounds like some CYA to me. Several Missouri sources stated that the MSG soldiers wanted to chop Lyon's body to pieces and they were prevented by one of their officers. I can't recall the officer's name, but I believe he was from the 5th Missouri. As @4th-MSM posted, Lyon's body was taken to a local farmhouse and put on ice by order of Gen. Price. Additionally, the Federal soldiers did drop their weapons and fled. Missouri officers recorded the number and types of arms found abandoned on the battlefield after the Yankees left. As I have been repeatedly told on this site, the victors get to write the history and that would be the Missourians.

And I don't know where you read your version, but it sounds like some Lost Cause revisionism.

Every battle fought in the Civil War had weapons left on the field.

 

[Lusty Murfax]

And I don't know where you read your version, but it sounds like some Lost Cause revisionism.

Every battle fought in the Civil War had weapons left on the field.

Don't know how you come up with the Lost Cause nonsense. You've used it a couple times in criticizing my posts. That not where I come from.

 

[leftyhunter]

Nor did Cole switch sides, he had enlisted in the MSG, returned home, then became a guerrilla, wasn't ever in Union militia or army that I know, doesn't appear in the soldier/sailor database as one......

Its not a question of the Younger brothers previously joining the Union affiliated milita. It's a matter that their father was not a secessionist but after his murder by Redlegs the brothers joined Quantrill.
Leftyhunter

 

[leftyhunter]

Your statements are far too sweeping and non-specific. I think your statements often tend to be purely silly in that regard.
If you had said: Tormenting SOME unionists is what SOME Confederate guerrillas did, I'd have been more willing to accept your point.

I do note that you referenced the Younger family. For the benefit of those among our readers who don't know this, Cole Younger was a noted guerrilla who came from a noted unionist family. He did not spend the war tormenting unionists. It seems clear to me that his guerrilla career was much more directed to fighting Jayhawkers, Federal-aligned militia, and the like.

But let's continue to focus on the subject of this thread: Nathaniel Lyon.

Not silly most of the time Quantrill and other guerrillas waged war against civilians. That is the nature of insurgency warfare.
Leftyhunter