Weaponry identification

[Bskel]

I need help identifying a civil war era sword. My best guess is a British military 1796 or a Nathaniel Starr 1860 model. Any help or guidance is appreciated. It may be a replica, but I would like some opinions as to what model this piece is. Can I use it for Civil War reenactments?

 

[Larryh86GT]

Welcome from WNY.

 

[captaindrew]

Welcome from South Florida and the Reenactors forum. I'm sure one of our blade experts will be along before long and tell you what you have. Look closely for any stamps on the blade or pommel and include a picture of them to help in an ID. As far as using original pieces at reenactments I'd be nervous as heck that something would happen to them. I have a few pieces and they stay safely displayed at home.

 

[Seduzal]

Welcome to CWT from the Smoky Mountain side of North Carolina.

 

[UCVRelics]

Welcome From THE Heart Of Dixie. It is not a Nathan Starr or American. Lets see if we can get an answere. Paging @Richard E. Schenk

 

[Hussar Yeomanry]

Welcome from the UK and from The First Bull Run/ Manassas Forum

 

[Glen_C]

P(eter jr) Knecht(& co) or other Solingen maker. There is nothing that defines it as entirely for the US market. 1830s.

 

[Bskel]

Welcome from South Florida and the Reenactors forum. I'm sure one of our blade experts will be along before long and tell you what you have. Look closely for any stamps on the blade or pommel and include a picture of them to help in an ID. As far as using original pieces at reenactments I'd be nervous as heck that something would happen to them. I have a few pieces and they stay safely displayed at home.

Thank you! I don't want to use it in reenactments if it is real. I didn't see any marks I the most common spots. Thanks for the invite. I'm in Seminole County!

 

[Bskel]

P(eter jr) Knecht(& co) or other Solingen maker. There is nothing that defines it as entirely for the US market. 1830s.

Previous owner stated it was traced back as a family heirloom from a union Soldier relative. That's all I have to go on.

 

[captaindrew]

Thank you! I don't want to use it in reenactments if it is real. I didn't see any marks I the most common spots. Thanks for the invite. I'm in Seminole County!

Great! Are you involved in reenacting now or looking to get into it? Our Florida season is just about wound down, we have a small event next weekend in Palm Coast and that's it for our bunch down here till next Fall. Some of us venture north in the summer and do some events up there.

 

[Bskel]

Great! Are you involved in reenacting now or looking to get into it? Our Florida season is just about wound down, we have a small event next weekend in Palm Coast and that's it for our bunch down here till next Fall. Some of us venture north in the summer and do some events up there.

I am looking to get involved. I will be in Palm coast next weekend for national guard training.

 

[captaindrew]

I am looking to get involved. I will be in Palm coast next weekend for national guard training.

We'll be at the Florida Agriculture Museum. I imagine they'll have you busy all weekend though and thank you for your service. Check out floridareenactorsonline.com for our schedule and units down here. If you go over to the Reenactors forum you'll find some pictures I've posted from some of the events in Florida. I belong to a CS infantry company that occasionally also goes Union with members from all over the state but mostly East Coast. The Florida season runs in the cooler months Nov - April. If you have any questions I'd be more than happy to help.

 

[Glen_C]

Any item made before the ACW may have been there and done that. There is no way to know the history of this sword without much more than the information you have so far.

It is easy to lump all P guard sabers into the British 1796 light cavalry group but that is a bit like saying all flintlock rifles are rooted to a single sire. As to Starr, none were produced in this fashion and their last cavalry contracts were for their model 1818.

These P guard "dove" head sabres were popular for more than a century and beyond that. Brass gripped examples though funnel to one source and timeline.

Your sword would benefit from something like Evapo-Rust. I would not use a wire wheel or heavy abrasives but it is a prime candidate for solvents, as the grip is metal, so no organics to worry about. As to reenactment, I would hope for a scabbard. Look closely at the base of the blade and blade spine for any marks whatsoever. Including letters. Look closely also for any numbers on the hilt.

I know I have an example in picture files somewhere on my drives and it may also be shown in a few books I've not visited today. It seems to me we even saw another on this board but danged if I can find it. A discussion came up somewhere. I know I'm also lumping these into my files with the brass gripped "Stockton Blues" swords, that were apparently made up of parts but this one shown i have seen somewhere, likely in the Medicus book or just in saved images.

Cheers
GC

 

[Bskel]

Any item made before the ACW may have been there and done that. There is no way to know the history of this sword without much more than the information you have so far.

It is easy to lump all P guard sabers into the British 1796 light cavalry group but that is a bit like saying all flintlock rifles are rooted to a single sire. As to Starr, none were produced in this fashion and their last cavalry contracts were for their model 1818.

These P guard "dove" head sabres were popular for more than a century and beyond that. Brass gripped examples though funnel to one source and timeline.

Your sword would benefit from something like Evapo-Rust. I would not use a wire wheel or heavy abrasives but it is a prime candidate for solvents, as the grip is metal, so no organics to worry about. As to reenactment, I would hope for a scabbard. Look closely at the base of the blade and blade spine for any marks whatsoever. Including letters. Look closely also for any numbers on the hilt.

I know I have an example in picture files somewhere on my drives and it may also be shown in a few books I've not visited today. It seems to me we even saw another on this board but danged if I can find it. A discussion came up somewhere. I know I'm also lumping these into my files with the brass gripped "Stockton Blues" swords, that were apparently made up of parts but this one shown i have seen somewhere, likely in the Medicus book or just in saved images.

Cheers
GC

Thank you!
After some light rubbing with vinegar, I noticed these markings. Maybe a sun?

 

[JOHN42768]

Welcome, enjoy

 

[Glen_C]

A sun and moon being revealed makes it even earlier than my initial hunches. Brass hilts actually go back earlier than the British 1796. Is there anything showing on the spine of the blade yet?. Still likely a Solingen made sword.

The kept stories through the years are interesting to think about. In that we have a blade earlier (more than I thought) than the ACW era and a family heirloom in such rough shape.

I will have to look through a handful of books but it is not as I first thought.

Cheers
GC

 

[Glen_C]

I do have handy a page of Solingen trade blades from the mid 19th century but my thoughts on those reflect old blades being used up. The style and manner of the etchings were common in the 18th century but curios by the mid 19th century.

Cheers (still digging through files)
GC

From Gilkerson's Boarders Away

 

[Bskel]

I do have handy a page of Solingen trade blades from the mid 19th century but my thoughts on those reflect old blades being used up. The style and manner of the etchings were common in the 18th century but curios by the mid 19th century.

Cheers (still digging through files)
GC

From Gilkerson's Boarders AwayView attachment 300043

Any update? I'm still curious as to why the sun moon and stars would be visible, but no other markings.

 

[Glen_C]

Well, there may be markings we have not yet determined to be a specific maker. As you can see from that book page, the catalog was from a distributor selling from various forges in Solingen. There may be guild marks (why I am stressing marks on the spine) but they are sometimes shown on the flat. A rose or other flower. There are so many blades as yet unidentified and more surfacing all the time. I have not forgotten and do hope to sit with books in the coming days but as the sword is a couple of hundred years old there shouldn't need to be a rush.

Two days isn't much of a wait and the one book plate was on the top of image files on my drives. One could invest in time reading about Solingen blade trade over the centuries beyond this thread.

You have prompted and enlisted others to do homework, or answer off the top of their heads and that's fine but my time has limitations as well. I am a little taken aback by this morning's prompt after my last post kind of answers your earlier question, now repeated.

Have I found the sword in books?
No.

Do I know the maker?
No.

How old is it?
In my opinion, not made for the ACW.



Cheers
GC

 

[Bskel]

Well, there may be markings we have not yet determined to be a specific maker. As you can see from that book page, the catalog was from a distributor selling from various forges in Solingen. There may be guild marks (why I am stressing marks on the spine) but they are sometimes shown on the flat. A rose or other flower. There are so many blades as yet unidentified and more surfacing all the time. I have not forgotten and do hope to sit with books in the coming days but as the sword is a couple of hundred years old there shouldn't need to be a rush.

Two days isn't much of a wait and the one book plate was on the top of image files on my drives. One could invest in time reading about Solingen blade trade over the centuries beyond this thread.

You have prompted and enlisted others to do homework, or answer off the top of their heads and that's fine but my time has limitations as well. I am a little taken aback by this morning's prompt after my last post kind of answers your earlier question, now repeated.

Have I found the sword in books?
No.

Do I know the maker?
No.

How old is it?
In my opinion, not made for the ACW.



Cheers
GC

Thank you