Veteran's card

[bensearch]

Good Day,
I would like to ask the forum a few questions:
1) Would soldiers have had more than 1 veterans card if they were reassigned or if there company was reorganized.

2) across the top of my ancestors card is the following numbers-what do they mean?

Redman, Thomas L -3 A 4-755

3) How old could a recruit be? Was there a top age for foot soldiers?

 

[Suzanne A]

Do you mean pension card? We're talking Civil War, right? I'm unfamiliar with Veteran's cards, but in 1906 the Veterans' Administration was formed and took over administration of Civil War pensions and the sending out of payments. Not only have I not seen these cards, I don't know those letters and numbers that you quote, but then I very seldom have to look at the payment process.

Re Civil War pensions, all the units of service for one individual, whether through Army reorganization or a new enlistment by the soldier, were aggregated into one pension file. That application (involving all units in which the soldier served) was given a number, if a pension certificate was awarded (and this was a long and frustrating process filled with bureaucratic roadblocks for most claimants), the certificate was given another number. I'm familiar with this certificate which is what the claimant displayed to prove his or her entitlement to the pension.

To see the index card maintained for your ancestor by the Veteran's Administration (VA) starting in 1907, you can go to familysearch.org, click Search, and on the right side of the screen below the map of the world, is a box labeled Find A Collection. In that box, under Collection Title fill in this language:

United States Veterans
That should cause the whole name of the file to appear below the box in purple letters, click on that name as soon as it appears or you'll have to search again:
United States Veterans Administration Pension Payment Cards, 1907 - 1933
Sorry for the big type, don't know how that happened.
In the Search boxes you can fill in your veteran's name and his payment card should come up. It will contain a notataion of his service in all military units. If he quit receiving benefits before 1907, there is no way to search this information online.

The reason they included all military service in a single pension file is because a full pension was earned with only a minimal service requirement (the minimum changed from time to time by Act of Congress), but the Pension Office needed to make sure that the applicant's service in all enlistments was honorable and he did not desert, etc. There were many fraudulent claims for pensions as well, and the Pension Office was always trying to prevent that, no one was entitled to claim two pensions.

I've read two files where soldiers enlisted and in one case deserted from the first enlistment and in the other case, was court martialed for disobeying a direct order and dishonorably discharged, then they changed their names slightly and re-enlisted in new regiment and served out their terms of enlistment. They did not disclose their first service to the Pension Office, but they found it and the pensions were denied in both cases.
If you were talking about something else, let me know. I'd love to know what you are referring to as the Veteran's Card.

 

[bensearch]

Thank you Suzanne-
That is great information. I do not believe what I am talking about is a pension card-

I scanned one in to show you what I am talking about-Expired Image Removed

 

[mcfb50]

This card is from the Pennsylvania Civil War Veteran's Card File: https://archon.klnpa.org/psa/index.php?p=collections/controlcard&id=8908

http://www.digitalarchives.state.pa.us/archive.asp?view=ArchiveIndexes&ArchiveID=17

There's a guide to deciphering the information here.
http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/2011/01/civil-war-veterans-card-file-pennsylvania-archives/

L- 3 A refers to Battery L, 3rd Heavy Artillery, which was part of the 152nd Pennsylvania Regiment.

http://www.pacivilwar.com/regiment/152nd.html

The 4-755 refers to the book that this material was originally transcribed for, Batees' History of Pennsylvania Volunteers, 1861-1865.

He's listed in Volume 4, page 755. Look here:
https://archive.org/stream/historyofpenns00bate#page/754/mode/2up

 

[mcfb50]

I meant to add that in cases of reassignment, reenlistment or reorganization, the transcribers would have attempted to include the information on the one card.

 

[JPK Huson 1863]

Welcome to the forum. I could add, that in the Pennsylvania index cards I've found personally sometimes one veteran does have two cards? It must have been such massive task they could not always keep men straight, although as mcfb said they tried to include transfers. If you've been to the index cards you've seen frequent, hand-written notes- guessing it was tough, keeping up with all the records. It is an amazing source- we're awfully fortunate here in PA, having them, especially on-line.

 

[Suzanne A]

Thanks bensearch, mcbf50 and JPK Huson 1863, I learned something here too. I've consulted the PA State Archives in Revolutionary War research and it's a great institution, but haven't had occasion to research these cards.

Just FYI it was such a massive task to compile Civil War Service records that even in the federal compilations we use now as Carded Compiled Service Records, made from originals in the 1880s-90s, there are similar problems, compounded by variant spellings of the soldiers' last names. Such variants were common as literacy levels were not high in those years. The Federal service records were kept by one regiment only, as they were created, but the Carded Compiled Service Records have notations on them and on their jacket of the soldier's service in other regiments, where that was known to the transcribers. If a man's records were kept as Readman in one unit and Redman in another regiment, there may be no coordination unless somehow the compilers picked it up that it was the same man. Amazingly enough, they often did manage to catch this.

I've tried many times to picture the people sitting at tables in the late 19th Century among piles of practically worn out original Civil War Service records trying to organize that data and make those cards. It's hard to believe they accomplished this without computers. There must have been many steps and layers of results involved in the process.

Re the compiled federal Service records, if the batch you have appears incomplete or you have reason to know that something happened that is not reflected in what you have, try searching the "Miscellaneous" file for the Regiment on Fold3 (if it has put those records on line yet) or request such a search at the National Archives, looking for a variant spelling of your man's name on a stray card. Or try looking for another separate jacketed file under a variant spelling.

This is one thing Ancestry is good for because it returns results with variant spellings automatically, although it doesn't anticipate every possible variant. Try doing an Ancestry Search of the Military Category under his name and see what comes up under the subcatagory, Soldier, Veteran and Prisoner Rolls & Lists, and then sub-subcategory U.S., Civil War Soldiers Records & Profiles and review the Results for other records that refer to your subject under alternate spelling or other regiments. You will have to get the actual service records elsewhere, but this search could tell you what to look for.

 

[Arioch]

....
Would soldiers have had more than 1 veterans card if they were reassigned or if there company was reorganized.....

Absolutely possible...in fact, I have that exact situation with a soldier I 'follow'...

Mine was a Pa. soldier as well....He enlisted in the 7th reserves at the beginning of the war, served his 3 yr term...was discharged...and then re-enlisted as a substitute about 8 months later...thus, he was in a different / new unit. It also cost him his rank. He was discharged form the 7th as a Corporal...he re-enlisted in the 100th (the Roundheads) as a private.

All of these circumstances wreaked havoc on his later pension fight. When I physically pulled his service and pension files down at the Archives, I was delighted to find a stack several inches thick...Bad news for him ( a heck of a bureaucratic fight), great news for me as the amateur historian / researcher...

In post #4 of this thread, 'mcfb50' is spot on....

That card you posted is from the state (Pa.) archives....You have to realize that at the beginning of the war the Federal record keeping was nonexistent to p*** poor, at best.....So, when the govt. began to look for these guys service records...they would find nothing to corroborate their mustering in....and would send requests to the various states for their records (if any)...I have paperwork specifically stating that this happened in my case study's situation ("applicant's federal file does not contain much [read: muster rolls merely stating 'present']...request sent to state archives for soldier's service and muster records)....and in my case...the state did not have much either...So, he had to gather 'sworn affidavits' to support all claims...including documentation of his birth...which was supplied by a cousin who had a family bible with a hand written notation of his birth....and then get an affidavit as to the veracity of said cousin etc, etc, etc....and on, and on, and on it went.....Lord......

 

[bensearch]

This card is from the Pennsylvania Civil War Veteran's Card File: https://archon.klnpa.org/psa/index.php?p=collections/controlcard&id=8908

http://www.digitalarchives.state.pa.us/archive.asp?view=ArchiveIndexes&ArchiveID=17

There's a guide to deciphering the information here.
http://civilwar.gratzpa.org/2011/01/civil-war-veterans-card-file-pennsylvania-archives/

L- 3 A refers to Battery L, 3rd Heavy Artillery, which was part of the 152nd Pennsylvania Regiment.

http://www.pacivilwar.com/regiment/152nd.html

The 4-755 refers to the book that this material was originally transcribed for, Batees' History of Pennsylvania Volunteers, 1861-1865.

He's listed in Volume 4, page 755. Look here:
https://archive.org/stream/historyofpenns00bate#page/754/mode/2up

Fantastic resources-thank you!

 

[bensearch]

Absolutely possible...in fact, I have that exact situation with a soldier I 'follow'...

Mine was a Pa. soldier as well....He enlisted in the 7th reserves at the beginning of the war, served his 3 yr term...was discharged...and then re-enlisted as a substitute about 8 months later...thus, he was in a different / new unit. It also cost him his rank. He was discharged form the 7th as a Corporal...he re-enlisted in the 100th (the Roundheads) as a private.

All of these circumstances wreaked havoc on his later pension fight. When I physically pulled his service and pension files down at the Archives, I was delighted to find a stack several inches thick...Bad news for him ( a heck of a bureaucratic fight), great news for me as the amateur historian / researcher...

In post #4 of this thread, 'mcfb50' is spot on....

That card you posted is from the state (Pa.) archives....You have to realize that at the beginning of the war the Federal record keeping was nonexistent to p*** poor, at best.....So, when the govt. began to look for these guys service records...they would find nothing to corroborate their mustering in....and would send requests to the various states for their records (if any)...I have paperwork specifically stating that this happened in my case study's situation ("applicant's federal file does not contain much [read: muster rolls merely stating 'present']...request sent to state archives for soldier's service and muster records)....and in my case...the state did not have much either...So, he had to gather 'sworn affidavits' to support all claims...including documentation of his birth...which was supplied by a cousin who had a family bible with a hand written notation of his birth....and then get an affidavit as to the veracity of said cousin etc, etc, etc....and on, and on, and on it went.....Lord......

fascinating stuff!

 

[bensearch]

This gggg grandfather of mine has been an interesting fellow to track. He, along with his son Warren ( who I believe is also in the same regiment) and many others in that generation of the family are listed as "mulatto" and "free colored" in the census of the 1800s. Yet while many of the family members served in the CW, they were not assigned to black regiments.

Grampa always said he had Native American blood in him and his ancestors have been here since at least the French and Indian War but truly my family is not certain as to whether they were of African descent, Native American descent or a mixture. We are considering DNA testing just for kicks!

 

[bensearch]

Absolutely possible...in fact, I have that exact situation with a soldier I 'follow'...

Mine was a Pa. soldier as well....He enlisted in the 7th reserves at the beginning of the war, served his 3 yr term...was discharged...and then re-enlisted as a substitute about 8 months later...thus, he was in a different / new unit. It also cost him his rank. He was discharged form the 7th as a Corporal...he re-enlisted in the 100th (the Roundheads) as a private.

All of these circumstances wreaked havoc on his later pension fight. When I physically pulled his service and pension files down at the Archives, I was delighted to find a stack several inches thick...Bad news for him ( a heck of a bureaucratic fight), great news for me as the amateur historian / researcher...

In post #4 of this thread, 'mcfb50' is spot on....

That card you posted is from the state (Pa.) archives....You have to realize that at the beginning of the war the Federal record keeping was nonexistent to p*** poor, at best.....So, when the govt. began to look for these guys service records...they would find nothing to corroborate their mustering in....and would send requests to the various states for their records (if any)...I have paperwork specifically stating that this happened in my case study's situation ("applicant's federal file does not contain much [read: muster rolls merely stating 'present']...request sent to state archives for soldier's service and muster records)....and in my case...the state did not have much either...So, he had to gather 'sworn affidavits' to support all claims...including documentation of his birth...which was supplied by a cousin who had a family bible with a hand written notation of his birth....and then get an affidavit as to the veracity of said cousin etc, etc, etc....and on, and on, and on it went.....Lord......

That is a great story! What a hastle! Can you imagine having to prove who you were in a world with no photo ID!

 

[Suzanne A]

That is a great story! What a hastle! Can you imagine having to prove who you were in a world with no photo ID!

This gggg grandfather of mine has been an interesting fellow to track. He, along with his son Warren ( who I believe is also in the same regiment) and many others in that generation of the family are listed as "mulatto" and "free colored" in the census of the 1800s. Yet while many of the family members served in the CW, they were not assigned to black regiments.

Grampa always said he had Native American blood in him and his ancestors have been here since at least the French and Indian War but truly my family is not certain as to whether they were of African descent, Native American descent or a mixture. We are considering DNA testing just for kicks!

That's very interesting. We were never classified as Colored or Mulatto but I always thought there was something besides the English and Irish we heard about. The science of determining ethnic origin through DNA is not very advanced and because each lab uses a different proprietary database and it's own interpretations to determine ethnicity, if you test in more than one lab you can get a different result in each one.

Because there is a family DNA project in which we are trying to find our ancestral origins overseas I did test at familytreeDNA, which I consider the most scientific of the labs.

I was expecting some Native American ancestry but it turns out that often does not show up in testing.. I turned out to be 91% British Isles and Scandinavian (the Viking conquest) 7% Anatolian or Middle Eastern which is totally baffling and 2% West African. Crazy as this sounds, I'm pleased I did this and I feel like some things I long felt and suspected since childhood were confirmed.

A Harvard professor has stated that with the exception of New Englanders, anyone whose family has been in this County since Revolutionary times or before is likely to be a mix of Caucasian (not necessarily British, but from Western Europe and Scandinavia), African and Native American.

There is also a census anomaly in our family -- my father's Uncle was reported in the 1920 census as Indian along with all of his children but not his wife. Just that one year. No one knew this until we researched our genealogy. Inexplicable, but maybe he had some skin pigmentation from our mixed heritage that was misinterpreted by the census taker.

American ethnicity can be surprising.

 

[Dilba]

We are considering DNA testing just for kicks!

While, as Suzanne pointed out, DNA ethnicity isn't yet exact, it is informative. We've had it done for three members of our family, including two cousins. The results were a little surprising, showing origins from Eastern Europe while our known history comes largely from Germany. But after looking into migration patterns back in the day, it is probably telling us a lot. You should do it for kicks if nothing else, but perhaps also a lead to much more.

 

[bensearch]

That's very interesting. We were never classified as Colored or Mulatto but I always thought there was something besides the English and Irish we heard about. The science of determining ethnic origin through DNA is not very advanced and because each lab uses a different proprietary database and it's own interpretations to determine ethnicity, if you test in more than one lab you can get a different result in each one.

Because there is a family DNA project in which we are trying to find our ancestral origins overseas I did test at familytreeDNA, which I consider the most scientific of the labs.

I was expecting some Native American ancestry but it turns out that often does not show up in testing.. I turned out to be 91% British Isles and Scandinavian (the Viking conquest) 7% Anatolian or Middle Eastern which is totally baffling and 2% West African. Crazy as this sounds, I'm pleased I did this and I feel like some things I long felt and suspected since childhood were confirmed.

A Harvard professor has stated that with the exception of New Englanders, anyone whose family has been in this County since Revolutionary times or before is likely to be a mix of Caucasian (not necessarily British, but from Western Europe and Scandinavia), African and Native American.

There is also a census anomaly in our family -- my father's Uncle was reported in the 1920 census as Indian along with all of his children but not his wife. Just that one year. No one knew this until we researched our genealogy. Inexplicable, but maybe he had some skin pigmentation from our mixed heritage that was misinterpreted by the census taker.

American ethnicity can be surprising.

That is interesting!

 

[bensearch]

Absolutely possible...in fact, I have that exact situation with a soldier I 'follow'...

Mine was a Pa. soldier as well....He enlisted in the 7th reserves at the beginning of the war, served his 3 yr term...was discharged...and then re-enlisted as a substitute about 8 months later...thus, he was in a different / new unit. It also cost him his rank. He was discharged form the 7th as a Corporal...he re-enlisted in the 100th (the Roundheads) as a private.

All of these circumstances wreaked havoc on his later pension fight. When I physically pulled his service and pension files down at the Archives, I was delighted to find a stack several inches thick...Bad news for him ( a heck of a bureaucratic fight), great news for me as the amateur historian / researcher...

In post #4 of this thread, 'mcfb50' is spot on....

That card you posted is from the state (Pa.) archives....You have to realize that at the beginning of the war the Federal record keeping was nonexistent to p*** poor, at best.....So, when the govt. began to look for these guys service records...they would find nothing to corroborate their mustering in....and would send requests to the various states for their records (if any)...I have paperwork specifically stating that this happened in my case study's situation ("applicant's federal file does not contain much [read: muster rolls merely stating 'present']...request sent to state archives for soldier's service and muster records)....and in my case...the state did not have much either...So, he had to gather 'sworn affidavits' to support all claims...including documentation of his birth...which was supplied by a cousin who had a family bible with a hand written notation of his birth....and then get an affidavit as to the veracity of said cousin etc, etc, etc....and on, and on, and on it went.....Lord......

I just met with a family member who was much more knowledgeable than I about members of our family that have been in the CW. He told me (and showed me with copies of letters and pension applications, etc) about one Benneville Moyer, who was shot in the arm at Chancellorsville. The bullet lodge into his elbow joint and was never removed causing young Benneville to no longer be able to do the heavy lifting required at his former trade-blacksmithing. Of course the farm work and most other labor proved most difficult as he aged. Family lore also says that he had "spells" brought on by lead poisoning. While the army believed he was injured-they were not sure he indeed was Benneville Moyer! He fought for many years to prove who he was before finally getting a pension.

 

[Arioch]

I just met with a family member who was much more knowledgeable than I about members of our family that have been in the CW. He told me (and showed me with copies of letters and pension applications, etc) about one Benneville Moyer, who was shot in the arm at Chancellorsville. The bullet lodge into his elbow joint and was never removed causing young Benneville to no longer be able to do the heavy lifting required at his former trade-blacksmithing. Of course the farm work and most other labor proved most difficult as he aged. Family lore also says that he had "spells" brought on by lead poisoning. While the army believed he was injured-they were not sure he indeed was Benneville Moyer! He fought for many years to prove who he was before finally getting a pension.

It's amazing, isn't it?

In my case, my guy had been sent to the regimental hospital in early 1864, and then on to a more formal military hospital in Philadelphia because of a large abcess that had developed on the underside of his upper arm and shoulder. He subsequently described it as 'large as a goose egg' in statements and affidavits. It was originally caused by having his knapsack cranked too tightly around his shoulder during the peninsula campaign in 1862.

At the regimental hospital, the condition was worsened by the regimental surgeon who lanced the abcess 'to the bone'...(gotta love ACW medical practices!)....and the saga begins....He had trouble with it the rest of his life. When it became disability / pension time, he had to gather all sorts of documentation and affidavits proving he acquired the aforementioned wound / disability in the service....This was compounded by one of the examining army surgeons, by noting in his record that it was a gunshot wound.

Each time he went in to have it examined (for pension purposes) he would be asked 'How did you get the wound?'..So, he would tell them...At one point one of the surgeons wrote down that he (my guy) told the surgeon that story (tight knapsack), and deliberately dismissed it AND WROTE DOWN IT WAS A GUNSHOT WOUND. THIS...lone entry, wreaked havoc for years in getting his pension straightened out....

One of the ultimate results of his pension fight, ended up being that he became the go-to guy at his GAR post in dealing with the govt. on pension issues. I've come across other documents and correspondences indicating such....so, he at least, was able to help others who were dealing with the issue as well....

 

[Suzanne A]

I'm a retired attorney and I've read over 100 CW pension files. Your application went right through if you were an officer, and it helped if your regiment was one of the rare ones that received commendation for outstanding behavior in action or if you had a "Casualty Report" of a gun shot wound in battle. But otherwise the process is a model of bureaucracy gone wrong and lawful claims that were deliberately thwarted by the bureaucrats themselves.

There was no time frame within which they were required to act on a request. They drug these things out as long as possible, they made erroneous findings, forcing applicant's into an appeal prĵocess, always hoping that the claimant would die before the benefits were not awarded before the claimant's death because then they could close the file -- Congress had passed a law that benefits could under no circumstances be paid to the "estate" even if accrued, after the claimant had died. I haven't researched the politics of the Civil War pension seriously, but the staff at the National Archives tells me that Civil War pensions eventually, as the men aged and more and more claims were allowed, took up over 1/3rd of the entire Federal budget and that many politicans were against an expense of this magnitude. They wanted to cut back pension entitlement and did institute a process of reviewing all the successful claimants for fraud, even though they had been vetted vigorously for fraud before the pension was granted. One NARA staffer told me that Grover Cleveland opposed the Pension (that's true) and it cost him an election.

What did happen politically is that the pension was very popular with the people as these men aged and their children could not support them. Initially the requirements for the pension were that there was disability and that it was cause by the military service. Around 1890, the law was changed and as long as there was disability in the veteran at that point, his claim would be successful. Attorneys were paid a flat fee (at one point $10) per successful case and some specialized in pension claims because they knew what was going on. Woe be it that the name of an attorney was not attached to a claimant's file. The attorneys got their local Congressmen and Senators involved in helping constitutants and the pension jackets started bearing the name of the member of Congress who was supervising this claim and requesting progress reports. The attorneys calendared their claims and corresponded with the Pension Office and visited Washington in person frequently to sit down with bureaucrats over the claims and prod them on.

Congress had a committee on pensions and if you were a Congressman who had a constituant who was aggrieved, you could have the staff of that committee review the claims, the staffer communicated with the pension bureau and if the report on the case back to Congress said an injustice had been done, Congress would pass a special law granting the pension.

If ever there was a process that demonstrated the need for administrative timetables, processes for hearings and appeals and judicial review, this is it.

On of my subjects was eventally a Congressional Medal of Honor winner who had not received that award when his pension claim was filed. In that file I found the only written evidence I've seen of this strategy of delay. To the man processing the file, his superior wrote, take no action on this claim until pressed by the claimant, not in those exact words but that was the message. I have a shot of that note on a flash drive somewhere and I'll have to try to pull it out some day. The claimant was William E Richey who served from Ohio and died in Kansas.

BTW Arioch, I think the doctor was trying to do your man a favor by reporting GSW. GSW's were a sure thing. Where the disability was caused by infection or disease, the medical issues of causation were often debatable.

When I'm picking up a pension file for some claimant I like for some reason or other and I see he was not represented by an attorney, my heart falls. Sometimes after years of delay and rejections, they do get an attorney and prevail, but the benefits don't relate back in time to the date of the originial claim.

 

[Arioch]

BTW Arioch, I think the doctor was trying to do your man a favor by reporting GSW. GSW's were a sure thing. Where the disability was caused by infection or disease, the medical issues of causation were often debatable.

THAT is very interesting....and does possibly explain a number of things..

In my case study it appears to have backfired if, indeed, that was the noting Doctor's intention...What subsequently happened was the govt. came back to him and said "Application denied...you've been lieing to us"...even though he had about 10 previous noted examinations in his file...all it took was the one entry to the contrary to earn the denial. He then started the process all over again, with witnesses, affidavits, submissions, etc....

There was, indeed, an attorney who began popping up in the documentation subsequent to the denying event....you can also clearly follow the congressional evolutions in his file as well (CW pension acts...starting at about 1875 and progressing forward)

 

[Suzanne A]

Well, Arioch, you're ancestor was not alone in receiving this treatment. I'm glad to hear he succeeded in the end.