The Jones Debate

[DevosDescendent]

So, bit of background about my Ancestor:

Andrew Perry Jones was born in May 1838 in Pennsylvania or Ohio - the sources differ. Sadly, he died in 1902 - just before death certificates were issued, so he's the only Jones in his line we know anything concrete about.

But I digress.

We know for sure that he served in the Civil War - Company I, 4th Pennsylvania Cavalry. What we DON'T know is how his service ended.

The reason is for conflicting sources. So, I'm gonna tell both versions. Then I'm gonna list some theories of mine, then you all can come to your own conclusions as to what happened.

The 1890 Veterans Schedule
Andrew himself provides the information here.

He says that he was enlisted on October 7th, 1861, and mustered out in 1865. Since he said that he served for "3 years, 9 months", that would imply a discharge date of June 1865.

The US Veteran Card/Veterans Burial Card
These ones tell a different story.

It says he was enlisted on the 17th of October 1861 (probably a typo), re-enlisted on January 1st, 1864 (implying a discharge at some point).......and deserted on March 24th, 1865. A "Proud Family Moment" right there, folks.

Theories
It feels like there's two stories here at once. Some of it is reconcilable - Andrew probably did re-enlist in January 1864 - but others.....not so much.

Here's a couple theories:

1. The cards are mistaken. It's entirely possible that these cards flubbed a couple details.
2. The 1890 Schedule is mistaken. Given that Andrew himself provided the info, I'd say this is unlikely.
3. Andrew lied on the 1890 Schedule. It's not impossible that he lied about his service to make himself look better. I know nothing about his personality, so I can't say much. However, he received a pension in 1870, and his grave mentions his unit, so I'm increasingly finding this unlikely.
4. A combination of the two stories. Andrew may simply have gone AWOL for a bit, then came back and resumed his service.

 

[milhistbuff1]

So, bit of background about my Ancestor:

Andrew Perry Jones was born in May 1838 in Pennsylvania or Ohio - the sources differ. Sadly, he died in 1902 - just before death certificates were issued, so he's the only Jones in his line we know anything concrete about.

But I digress.

We know for sure that he served in the Civil War - Company I, 4th Pennsylvania Cavalry. What we DON'T know is how his service ended.

The reason is for conflicting sources. So, I'm gonna tell both versions. Then I'm gonna list some theories of mine, then you all can come to your own conclusions as to what happened.

The 1890 Veterans Schedule
Andrew himself provides the information here.

He says that he was enlisted on October 7th, 1861, and mustered out in 1865. Since he said that he served for "3 years, 9 months", that would imply a discharge date of June 1865.

The US Veteran Card/Veterans Burial Card
These ones tell a different story.

It says he was enlisted on the 17th of October 1861 (probably a typo), re-enlisted on January 1st, 1864 (implying a discharge at some point).......and deserted on March 24th, 1865. A "Proud Family Moment" right there, folks.

Theories
It feels like there's two stories here at once. Some of it is reconcilable - Andrew probably did re-enlist in January 1864 - but others.....not so much.

Here's a couple theories:

1. The cards are mistaken. It's entirely possible that these cards flubbed a couple details.
2. The 1890 Schedule is mistaken. Given that Andrew himself provided the info, I'd say this is unlikely.
3. Andrew lied on the 1890 Schedule. It's not impossible that he lied about his service to make himself look better. I know nothing about his personality, so I can't say much. However, he received a pension in 1870, and his grave mentions his unit, so I'm increasingly finding this unlikely.
4. A combination of the two stories. Andrew may simply have gone AWOL for a bit, then came back and resumed his service.

Have you checked his military/pension files from NARA? They tend to provide greater detail. It's possible he was in transit/in hospital and marked awol in error?

He may have also served in two separate regiments? Been a three year man and re-enlisted in one of the Veteran regiments. They got a decent bounty for that iirc.

What was his spouse's name? She may have also filed for a pension.

 

[RedRover]

If a man was A.W.O.L., and reported as a deserter by his unit, the only way he might alter such official conclusion was to return to his outfit. If he didn't, before his unit was officially mustered out of service, then the last notice would have to stand.



The 4th Pennsylvania Cavalry was mustered out in July, 1865.

At the close of the war all army units were ordered to produce a final roll, with final dispositions of every man necessarily given. If a man was not present, and had no official reason for being absent, even were his officers not inclined to do so, on the final roll he'd have to be recorded as a "deserter" to show a manner of his "official" separation from service.
I would suspect this may be the case with Private Jones, given the reference to his "desertion" within a week of the fall of Richmond, and collapse of the Confederacy.

For example. The reenlisted veterans (like Private Jones) were by law due a "veterans furlough." If they did not return to their unit on time, particularly before it was mustered out of US service, they would have to be classed as "deserters" to show an end to their service when their outfit was mustered out. The veterans of the 15th Maine noted many of the men ultimately recorded as "deserted" by the Government were of this class, many of them among the bravest veterans of the war, who were thus branded with an "administrative" mark of obloquy for doing what Thousands of soldiers did at one time or another during the war (Absence without leave), but AT THE WRONG TIME (the end of the war, as their outfit was mustered out)... Thus the large roll of official "deserters" who were but lollygagging when their outfit was mustered out of service.

About one in seven Union soldiers were classed as deserters. However, the Provost Marshal General admitted many men, at least 68,000 officially reported as deserters were certainly not actually so (viz. would have been cleared of the charge had their been any court martial in their cases), and pushed the real number downwards.

Here's the report...

 

[rpkennedy]

So, bit of background about my Ancestor:

Andrew Perry Jones was born in May 1838 in Pennsylvania or Ohio - the sources differ. Sadly, he died in 1902 - just before death certificates were issued, so he's the only Jones in his line we know anything concrete about.

But I digress.

We know for sure that he served in the Civil War - Company I, 4th Pennsylvania Cavalry. What we DON'T know is how his service ended.

The reason is for conflicting sources. So, I'm gonna tell both versions. Then I'm gonna list some theories of mine, then you all can come to your own conclusions as to what happened.

The 1890 Veterans Schedule
Andrew himself provides the information here.

He says that he was enlisted on October 7th, 1861, and mustered out in 1865. Since he said that he served for "3 years, 9 months", that would imply a discharge date of June 1865.

The US Veteran Card/Veterans Burial Card
These ones tell a different story.

It says he was enlisted on the 17th of October 1861 (probably a typo), re-enlisted on January 1st, 1864 (implying a discharge at some point).......and deserted on March 24th, 1865. A "Proud Family Moment" right there, folks.

Theories
It feels like there's two stories here at once. Some of it is reconcilable - Andrew probably did re-enlist in January 1864 - but others.....not so much.

Here's a couple theories:

1. The cards are mistaken. It's entirely possible that these cards flubbed a couple details.
2. The 1890 Schedule is mistaken. Given that Andrew himself provided the info, I'd say this is unlikely.
3. Andrew lied on the 1890 Schedule. It's not impossible that he lied about his service to make himself look better. I know nothing about his personality, so I can't say much. However, he received a pension in 1870, and his grave mentions his unit, so I'm increasingly finding this unlikely.
4. A combination of the two stories. Andrew may simply have gone AWOL for a bit, then came back and resumed his service.

Pennsylvania records have him as enlisted as a veteran on January 1, 1864 which makes it possible that he enlisted in October 1861 with the rest of the regiment. They also have him deserting on March 24, 1865.

Ryan

 

[lupaglupa]

I have two comments -

Andrew may not have been the person to give the information to the Census taker in 1890. There was no requirement that the Census taker speak to the actual individual, so you can't assume that Andrew himself gave this information.

The Pennsylvania records are clear that they considered him a deserter. Which make the fact that he got a pension interesting. Have you tried to get his pension application? These are availble from the National Archives. If there is an explanantion for what happened that exonerates him it would be in this file. You can order a copy directly from the archives or through a third-party company like Gopher Records (@Bob Velke ).

 

[ErnieMac]

He applied for an invalid pension in 1892. Record found on Fold3. Don't know if he received it, but deserters were not eligible.

 

[lupaglupa]

He applied for an invalid pension in 1892. Record found on Fold3. Don't know if he received it, but deserters were not eligible.
View attachment 559875

There is no certificate number, just an application number. That would show there was no pension. But - there would still (probably) be an application.

 

[Bob Velke]

There is no certificate number, just an application number. That would show there was no pension. But - there would still (probably) be an application.

...and the file probably contains an explanation as to why it wasn't approved . There may also be correspondence from the soldier (as he tried to explain the desertion charge) and the response(s) from the Pension Office.

There were also eight occasions in the period of 1892-1901 in which various lawyers and politicians wrote to the Record and Pension Office to try get the charge of desertion removed and give him an honorable discharge. One or more of these files (and probably all of them) may have been merged together.

As @lupaglupa mentioned, we can get a copy of the pension file but we can also get copies of these correspondence file(s). See my signature below.

 

[CWdiaryPA]

The Pension Act of 1890 provided that a dismissal was grounds for denial of pension rights.

The surgeon of the 110th PA Vols, after he died, his wife had to get an act of Congress passed before she could collect his Pension. And she had to *keep reapplying* for it under House Bill Number 8631, & finally won it in 1902, after 12 years passed from first application.

Lincoln had kicked Dr. Hays out of the army for neglect of duty, but let him back in two months later. The Congressional Committee named "Invalid Pension Subcommittee" required witnesses (who were present the night the doctor supposedly neglected trains of injured men fresh off Port Republic, June, '62) to appear before it & testify as to the doctor's character & events of that night.

Hays was, for a time, acting surgeon in chief of the Army of the Potomac, & reportedly the very first Union doctor to operate under fire at the front. I mention all this, & the ironic fact Hays was also a United States Examining Surgeon in pension cases from 1865 to 1882, to show that if it was that much of a battle for a fairly well-known surgeon to lose a pension, & his wife to have to ceaselessly fight for it, imagine how many men lost cases over the decades. Even just for a slip up in paperwork. Reminds me of the application process for {modern politics, will be excised} today.

I bet Velke above can hunt down every last record for you. Many of us have used his services & it was a blessed experience, esp. when compared to months' wait for NARA. Good luck!

 

[DevosDescendent]

So, bit of background about my Ancestor:

Andrew Perry Jones was born in May 1838 in Pennsylvania or Ohio - the sources differ. Sadly, he died in 1902 - just before death certificates were issued, so he's the only Jones in his line we know anything concrete about.

But I digress.

We know for sure that he served in the Civil War - Company I, 4th Pennsylvania Cavalry. What we DON'T know is how his service ended.

The reason is for conflicting sources. So, I'm gonna tell both versions. Then I'm gonna list some theories of mine, then you all can come to your own conclusions as to what happened.

The 1890 Veterans Schedule
Andrew himself provides the information here.

He says that he was enlisted on October 7th, 1861, and mustered out in 1865. Since he said that he served for "3 years, 9 months", that would imply a discharge date of June 1865.

The US Veteran Card/Veterans Burial Card
These ones tell a different story.

It says he was enlisted on the 17th of October 1861 (probably a typo), re-enlisted on January 1st, 1864 (implying a discharge at some point).......and deserted on March 24th, 1865. A "Proud Family Moment" right there, folks.

Theories
It feels like there's two stories here at once. Some of it is reconcilable - Andrew probably did re-enlist in January 1864 - but others.....not so much.

Here's a couple theories:

1. The cards are mistaken. It's entirely possible that these cards flubbed a couple details.
2. The 1890 Schedule is mistaken. Given that Andrew himself provided the info, I'd say this is unlikely.
3. Andrew lied on the 1890 Schedule. It's not impossible that he lied about his service to make himself look better. I know nothing about his personality, so I can't say much. However, he received a pension in 1870, and his grave mentions his unit, so I'm increasingly finding this unlikely.
4. A combination of the two stories. Andrew may simply have gone AWOL for a bit, then came back and resumed his service.

Sorry for the delays in responding. I was busy yesterday. Currently processing responses from you all!

 

[DevosDescendent]

Have you checked his military/pension files from NARA? They tend to provide greater detail. It's possible he was in transit/in hospital and marked awol in error?

He may have also served in two separate regiments? Been a three year man and re-enlisted in one of the Veteran regiments. They got a decent bounty for that iirc.

What was his spouse's name? She may have also filed for a pension.

First spouse was Elizabeth Law (died 1885). Second spouse was Margaret Maria Frankenberger - who outlived him by 30 years. Neither woman, as far as I know, ever applied for a pension.

 

[DevosDescendent]

He applied for an invalid pension in 1892. Record found on Fold3. Don't know if he received it, but deserters were not eligible.
View attachment 559875

I saw that - I assumed it was either 1872 or 1892 - the cursive isn't very clear.

 

[DevosDescendent]

...and the file probably contains an explanation as to why it wasn't approved . There may also be correspondence from the soldier (as he tried to explain the desertion charge) and the response(s) from the Pension Office.

There were also eight occasions in the period of 1892-1901 in which various lawyers and politicians wrote to the Record and Pension Office to try get the charge of desertion removed and give him an honorable discharge. One or more of these files (and probably all of them) may have been merged together.

View attachment 559920View attachment 559921View attachment 559923View attachment 559924View attachment 559925View attachment 559926View attachment 559927View attachment 559928

As @lupaglupa mentioned, we can get a copy of the pension file but we can also get copies of these correspondence file(s). See my signature below.

Good to know!

I've seen some of the Pension records, but most Jones research was done via Ancestry.com - which wouldn't have all the records. Again, still something of an amateur genealogist.

I've never seen this record! I know he died in February 1902. So he was fighting to get those charges removed, even up to a month before his death. It's kind of sad, actually.

 

[DevosDescendent]

Good to know!

I've seen some of the Pension records, but most Jones research was done via Ancestry.com - which wouldn't have all the records. Again, still something of an amateur genealogist.

I've never seen this record! I know he died in February 1902. So he was fighting to get those charges removed, even up to a month before his death. It's kind of sad, actually.

For the record, I try to be honest when it comes to genealogy - ESPECIALLY when it comes to Civil War ancestors.

I don't try to whitewash anything - more than anything, I want the truth....whether it's cool, ugly, or just plain weird.

 

[lupaglupa]

There could be a really interesting story here.

 

[DevosDescendent]

There could be a really interesting story here.

I'll have to do a post on Andrew at some point in the future. And on his brother Harrison - the other Civil War ancestor on my dad's side (whose story is even more interesting!)

 

[lupaglupa]

Excellent! If you do get the pension application - and I hope you do - please let us know what the true events were that led to the desertion charge. I don't think Andrew would have pushed that hard to have it removed it he hadn't felt it was unjust.

 

[Nathan Stuart]

After reviewing the information provided so far.

On the PA records, Pvte. Andrew Perry Jones (1838-1902), Co. I, 4th PA cavalry. is shown as m/i on Jan. 1, '64 for 3 years and is recorded as deserted on Mar. 24, '65. (Whether or not he actually went AWOL, he did not m/o with the regiment on Jul. 1, '65).

Records displayed above pertain to an 'application for pension' and repeated 'applications for the removal of the charge of desertion'.

But there is no evidence that either of these types of application were ever successful. (Deserters were not eligible for the pension).

After cursorily checking the listed 'Private Acts and Resolutions' of the 57th Congress (1902-1903), it does not appear that his most recent application for 'removal of charge of desertion' was approved.
(See https://www.loc.gov/resource/llsalvol.llsal_032/?sp=20&st=image&r=-0.919,0.16,2.839,1.36,0 ).

At this stage. Subject to any further contrary evidence being adduced, seems this soldier is classified as a deserter. At least that remains the official view.

 

[Allyn]

If he died in Pennsylvania, there should be county death records available (1893-1906), probably available at the county court house. This won't have information about his military career, but could pinpoint where he was born. I believe they also asked for names of parents but this information was often missiing. Have you checked those records?